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MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

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MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by jonnotheone on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 10:09

HI guys firstly i had no idea were to put this as its tora race related(i think lol) anyway...

after last night in spec cup i came up with an idea involving newbies and the older guys..

putting us all in the same lobby is just asking for carnage and generally that is what you get.
so my suggestion is why cant a licence grading be granted to each driver its not hard to restrict new people from joining certain
races as i deal with alot of forums and know its possible to restrict others from seeing and posting on certain posts

my thought was all new guys in the last 3/4 months are rookies no matter how good you are and think you are
and before you are granted amateur status you have to compete in erm lets say 4 rookie races to gain amateur rank licence then you have to compete in at-least 3 amateur races to gain semi-pro then this opens up alot more to do. as you would be able to race with the pro's and the legends

so it would look like...

ROOKIE.....4 RACES IN ROOKIE EVENT GAINS
AMATEUR.....3 RACES IN AMATEUR GAINS
SEMI-PRO.....OPENS UP ALL RACES BUT NOT ROOKIE OR AMATEUR RACES

This is only a thought as in f1 they don't just pluck you from the street to race you have to prove you can actually race same as btcc and wtcc wrc and any other pro racing out there.

as i said its not hard to put in place and is no way unfair to anyone it just make racing better for all an hopefully more fun and gives those that have a lets say less than stable connection time to sort it out(cus there's nothing worse than being lag bombed lol) i know its only a game but for some people this is as close as they will ever get to being a race driver.so why not make it as real as it can

this is just a thought and i welcome comments criticism and banter or your opinions on this.

(i know someone will pop up and say we tried this lol)



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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by F4H Lotterer on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 10:15

Its a numbers issue , with the failing of Forza 5 numbers are not as strong as they were on Forza 4 this is why there is such a wide variety of driver levels mixing it up in the race events so a license would not be possible at this current stage.
Pending Forza 6 and closer to date Project CARS we should see w greater sign up rate to events so maybe this is something to look at later in the year.

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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by BG Cowboy on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 12:41

So if someone has been racing for months or even years on another site (VM for example) but comes over here because they think a TORA series looks good or they are helping out friends/teammates in an endurance event that they might not be able to race in it?

You need to find people to host each tier and you could be hosting a race for a handful of people who could have vastly different levels of experience and speed. That turns these rookie events into nothing more than hotlapping sessions where people won't get to practice their race craft.

TORA is meant to be fun, not a job so comparing it to a real life Motorsport ladder is a little misguided IMO. If someone isn't 'qualified' to run in an event they find fun but what they need to complete to gain access doesn't appeal to them then they might not enjoy TORA, stick around long enough to have fun or even sign up at all.

The ladder system is a great way of protecting those who are already in position but IMO can be more of a deterrent to potential newcomers to TORA.

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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by Flyin Mikey J on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 13:45

^ Agreed.

The whole ladder system kept me away from the sites that use that format.


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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by connor7195 on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 15:00

I'm not a fan of this. Personally I like seeing new people racing against some of the more experienced racers here. As stated you would need to find hosts to run the different levels and it's hard to do so because after 3-4 months you would have to choose new people to host events and so on. Another issue is series. For example, a new member joins and wanted to race in Radicals but they're an amateur and the series is for pro's. Although you could run the series for each rank (Radical Amateur, Radical Semi-Pro etc.), that could become confusing for people doing SI's, points etc. A further issue with running this is there will always be people who bend the rules to allow their friends to race with them. For example someone who has 2 months experience (amateur) ending up racing in a pro series because their friend lets them. I personally prefer the system how it is with anyone having the potential to race with others. Not having a go as if policed properly it could work well however I myself am not a fan of this.

A possible suggestion though is weekly we could run a race meeting where newer members can race each other to get an experience of how TORA works so the rulings, qualifying procedure, starts and so on as I have seen incidences where newer members are not quite sure what to do whether it be carrying on in qualifying instead of stopping or starting too early to name a few as I feel sometimes when the rules are demonstrated and practised in the right way, they can be easier to understand than just reading a long list on the forum.







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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by ROSCOEpCOTRAIN on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 15:03

I say apply for the license you think you are qualified for... the tests need to be more then just fast laps Hotlapping is NOT racing
...few quick tests and boom. Add a probation period for new guys that only has stiffer penaltys for on track muppetry Smile thats just my 2cents


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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by Flyin Mikey J on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 15:05

connor7195 wrote:

A possible suggestion though is weekly we could run a race meeting where newer members can race each other to get an experience of how TORA works so the rulings, qualifying procedure, starts and so on as I have seen incidences where newer members are not quite sure what to do whether it be carrying on in qualifying instead of stopping or starting too early to name a few as I feel sometimes when the rules are demonstrated and practised in the right way, they can be easier to understand than just reading a long list on the forum.

Great idea... any volunteer hosts for it?


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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by Maynard093 on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 15:12

Just let people race in the series they want to race in. Driver ranking would be no more than an ego stroking contest. Why deal with the ball ache that would come from it?

Slow drivers don't improve if they're lumped with other slow drivers.

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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by jonnotheone on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 15:26

BG Cowboy wrote:

TORA is meant to be fun, not a job so comparing it to a real life Motorsport ladder is a little misguided IMO.
just to touch on this little section here mate id like to refer you to the tora website and the home page that states in big bold letters AS REAL AS IT GETS...but yes i do fully agree its supposed to be fun but when you have people ruining it for others it takes the fun out of it i surely cant be the only one to have been fragged by a new member (rookie)with no experience at all or by others that race from other sites


(not direted at BG Cowboy)..my idea/thought is only an idea and maybe not all of it can be put in place but there is parts of it that can be used....surely tora staff are open to suggestions to help improve and make the experience a more fun and exciting for every one from all walks of life

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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by LMP Dragon on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 15:32

Sounds like iRacing setup there, jonno... Not the greatest of ideas. As for Connor's suggestion, I think it is a good idea... I can host but not a marshal. So, I will willingly host it if you want me to.


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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by HCR Solar on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 16:45

well lets be honest here i joined and was straight into A Lobby Racing it would of been a bit Unfair for me 2 be in Amateur Races if im already at the Level with A Lobby






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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by EZT MAKO 6669 on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 17:25

That's what qualifying is for. Similarly skilled drivers are usually matched up together. The problem arises when the number of drivers falls and there is only one lobby or two at best. (your proposed system would only dilute the field further)

To echo some others here, I have been racing over at VM for two years and at FLR for two years before that. I'm typically a lobby two driver outside of Nascar, and can't keep up with the likes of XPR or F4H, but I would hardly call myself an "amateur".

You mention real world racing and F1. Are there not slower and less competent drivers there as well that the faster guys must contend with?

I know many fast drivers who don't mind being in a lobby with slower less skilled drivers, as long as they are fairly competent and understand the rules and etiquette of racing. That said, if a driver in any given series is found to be a hindrance to the general race, then he/she should be dealt with by the organizers accordingly.

As to Conner's idea, it can be a big help for new drivers and I've seen other leagues do it. A good host can be a big help however. My very first race (Nascar) at VM I landed on the pole in my lobby. The host expertly and patiently guided me through the proceedings. The rest of the lobby was patient and supportive as well, and all went off without a hitch. A knowledgeable and competent host can make all the difference with new inexperienced drivers in a lobby.





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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by jgroves1996 on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 17:40

connor7195 wrote:
A possible suggestion though is weekly we could run a race meeting where newer members can race each other to get an experience of how TORA works so the rulings, qualifying procedure, starts and so on as I have seen incidences where newer members are not quite sure what to do whether it be carrying on in qualifying instead of stopping or starting too early to name a few as I feel sometimes when the rules are demonstrated and practised in the right way, they can be easier to understand than just reading a long list on the forum.

That's a lot like the GoDaddy Fun Cup we used to run last year, I think it helped a few new drivers at the time to get better Smile

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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by Dragonsyoung on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 18:17

Fun cup was where i started Smile    damn good fun,  Im up to host a new series of it.  say twingo or 207? A class?

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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by The British 1st on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 18:24

I think TORA should have a driving ranking system just like in real racing e.g. Bronze , Sliver and gold.... also if TORA wants to get close to "as real as it gets" then a driving ranking system would be needed.

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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by Maynard093 on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 18:54

How are you even supposed to police a system like that? lap time cut off? What stops someone manipulating the system?

Don't get me wrong, It would be great to have, But there's no way to fairly do it on a computer game.

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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by ROSCOEpCOTRAIN on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 19:43

Its not based on time...its etiquette
Qualifying is fine and dandy but when you have "alien" hotlappers who can not hold a corner two...sometimes three wide it means jack. Or when someone goes off and cuts back on in front of others just to not lose a spot...these are learned on track racing


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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by Maynard093 on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 20:21

So how do you expect bad drivers to improve if we separate people based on skill level?

If anything driver rankings would just put people off of signing up for TORA.

It'd just turn into a [Censored] storm.

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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by ROSCOEpCOTRAIN on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 20:41

....they still race !!!
Have three different rear bumper colors then we know who has put there time in and who may need a little more of a wide berth


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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by XPR Roadrunner on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 20:47

F4H Trash wrote:Its a numbers issue , with the failing of Forza 5 numbers are not as strong as they were on Forza 4 this is why there is such a wide variety of driver levels mixing it up in the race events so a license would not be possible at this current stage.
Pending Forza 6 and closer to date Project CARS we should see w greater sign up rate to events so maybe this is something to look at later in the year.

this

EDIT: I don't mean to be a [insert whatever here]. I don't really care about people that have sub-par driving skills, we all get that you have to start somewhere. MY concern for something of this nature is to make sure people know the rules of the road. Not everybody reads the rules (we should all be reading the rules) and you have stupid SI's put in for something that could have been avoided with just a bit of reading. For example, somebody going off track and spinning off (or not), only to come back and absolutely annihilate somebody on the racing line. It's happened too many times.. (not that particular example, I mean in general).

IF you were to implement something like this, I'd suggest either a mock race, held once in a while, to ensure new people to online racing as a whole know the MSA rules.


Last edited by XPR Roadrunner on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 21:02; edited 1 time in total

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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by Maynard093 on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 20:48

So just have novice crosses for members running in their first TORA series. That way other drivers know said person is new to TORA, And perhaps not quite up to speed.

How would you suggest sorting decent drivers between Silver and Gold ratings?
If they've all got decent race craft, Then it would have to come down to pace. How do you find a cut off? You're always going to have that one Silver driver, Or one Bronze driver that everyone will complain about and say that said person should be bumped up a class. It just doesn't work.

You're better off just not labeling people and getting on with it. Driver classes WILL cause arguments. You can guarantee that.

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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by XPR Roadrunner on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 21:05

XPR Roadrunner wrote:
F4H Trash wrote:Its a numbers issue , with the failing of Forza 5 numbers are not as strong as they were on Forza 4 this is why there is such a wide variety of driver levels mixing it up in the race events so a license would not be possible at this current stage.
Pending Forza 6 and closer to date Project CARS we should see w greater sign up rate to events so maybe this is something to look at later in the year.

this

EDIT: I don't mean to be a [insert whatever here]. I don't really care about people that have sub-par driving skills, we all get that you have to start somewhere. MY concern for something of this nature is to make sure people know the rules of the road. Not everybody reads the rules (we should all be reading the rules) and you have stupid SI's put in for something that could have been avoided with just a bit of reading. For example, somebody going off track and spinning off (or not), only to come back and absolutely annihilate somebody on the racing line. It's happened too many times.. (not that particular example, I mean in general).

IF you were to implement something like this, I'd suggest either a mock race, held once in a while, to ensure new people to online racing as a whole know the MSA rules.

just incase it got missed, since it was the last post on the first page.

I think skill classes are dumb, unless you purposely have something like a WEC or TUDOR like series where the skill is built into the class

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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by The British 1st on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 22:17

All I am saying is would TORA conceder the possibility of a driving rank system if It could be implemented in a fair way.

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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by F4H Diablo on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 22:21

The only "rating" that you can receive is by your results. No system is ever going to properly model how skillful you are as a racer. Even the iRating system and Safety Rating system that iRacing uses is rather flawed.

Best to not have a rating system at all, it causes unnecessary bickering and bad blood.







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Re: MY THOUGHT...IDEA.???(TORA STAFF)

Post by skyshadow5 on Thu 11 Dec 2014 - 23:30

From what I have read, it seems the more popular alternative to any form of rating (which I completely disagree with btw), is a weekly (or bi-weekly) race night hosted by a long standing and known competent host, explaining the way things are at TORA. For example, doing one lap of Motegi oval to set a starting grid before the race, or how to properly do a formation lap without crashing in to the person in front. How to form up on the grid when there are not enough grid slots (25ft from person in front) etc. These sort of things are useful to someone new to TORA and if they have been practiced before a proper event then it is less likely for pre-race issues to occur and delay the nights proceedings.
If this mock race-night also includes 5-10 laps of whichever track is chosen following the pre-race setup practice, then the host can also try to instill into people the "can't win the race on the first corner" mantra and as mentioned earlier, "don't just barrel back on to the track after an off" too.
If I remember correctly, when I took part in my first TORA series, my livery had to include the "rookie" black cross on yellow background as did my team mates. All of us have been console racing for years but had no problem sporting this badge purely to show it was the first TORA series we had entered, has this practice been stopped now? I think it was a good idea.

I would be happy to take part in these mock-race nights (GMT only) to make up the numbers if needed and I'm sure that others would be willing to help out too especially if it means that "real" race nights go off with less problems.

~sky~

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