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MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by BG Cowboy on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 14:24

CQR MAGiC wrote:Stan asked for what other drivers opinions were (i.e. those that are eligible), and that's mine - and I'm sure there are many many others who would be happy to race with those rules too.

I know I'm playing devils advocate but isn't that exactly what someone who is eligible would want though?
Potentially less challengers to what is a great prize, especially when they may have won races/rounds/championships before?
silent



Stan, I know that whatever decision is made it will inevitably come in for criticism because you won't be able to please everyone.
It's also understandable if you want to only have those enter Class A who are eligible for the top prize to simplify promotion of the prize in the broadcasts.
Whatever happens though it needs to be swift and TORA need to stick behind whatever the decision is.


FWIW - I'm eligible and would prefer to see the site and the close racing promoted over the top prize but can acknowledge that it may not be possible due to agreements made with sponsors.
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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by HCR Yar Yar Yar on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 14:30

I know people with driving licenses that shouldn't be eligible to breed let alone race but there ok to enter. Seems a bit harsh. Winner takes all if they can't use it luckily someone invented ebay. Iv got my license but don't see how that makes me more eligible to a series than my fellow tora friends. If someone without a driving license wins then thats there problem why are you getting all political about it. Just say you win this..... simples
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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by I Ray P Dave I on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 14:35

I'll just whip out my Windsor legoland license its in the UK and valid so what's the problem with that?
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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by hunty1981 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 14:47

I think that everyone should be able to enter but seperate those who can claim the prize as one class and those who cant in another class keeps it as fair as u can

And i do hold a full driving licence








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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by HCR Solar on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 14:59

just thought about the 2 seperate classes and it will Hinder people that would like to Run the other lower class compared to the A Class, so was there gonna be 1 prize each for the top of A Class and Top of the Other class? if not then what Hunty says will work fine.




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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by MysticV 247 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 15:19

I think that in the interest of health and safety at the track a driving licence should be required. Having a licence is the sure way for the event organizers to know that the winner has had proper training to use a vehicle.

It's perfectly reasonable to have certain criteria to make someone eligible for a series. Its like getting asked for id for cigarettes or alcohol. Just because it's something you already regularly do doesn't mean you can automatically complain when there are set conditions. TV competitions work the same way....

Yes it's a great prize and everyone would like the chance to win it, but there are rules and if you don't meet them then it's tough.

Just remember guys the rules are made by the prize givers not tora so try and respect that and be adults about it.
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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by xebot360 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 15:27

HCR Mystic wrote:I think that in the interest of health and safety at the track a driving licence should be required. Having a licence is the sure way for the event organizers to know that the winner has had proper training to use a vehicle.

It's perfectly reasonable to have certain criteria to make someone eligible for a series. Its like getting asked for id for cigarettes or alcohol. Just because it's something you already regularly do doesn't mean you can automatically complain when there are set conditions. TV competitions work the same way....

Yes it's a great prize and everyone would like the chance to win it, but there are rules and if you don't meet them then it's tough.

Just remember guys the rules are made by the prize givers not tora so try and respect that and be adults about it.

I get what your saying but its wrong to exclude people without a drivers license though.

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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by HCR Solar on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 15:29

xebot360 wrote:
HCR Mystic wrote:I think that in the interest of health and safety at the track a driving licence should be required. Having a licence is the sure way for the event organizers to know that the winner has had proper training to use a vehicle.

It's perfectly reasonable to have certain criteria to make someone eligible for a series. Its like getting asked for id for cigarettes or alcohol. Just because it's something you already regularly do doesn't mean you can automatically complain when there are set conditions. TV competitions work the same way....

Yes it's a great prize and everyone would like the chance to win it, but there are rules and if you don't meet them then it's tough.

Just remember guys the rules are made by the prize givers not tora so try and respect that and be adults about it.

I get what your saying but its wrong to exclude people without a drivers license though.

i think fairest way to do it to make everyone Happy so to speak is to make the A Class the only Class to Win Prizes and the other Class a non Eligible for 1st place, but maybe let us win Posters for 1,2,3 or something like that




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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by Standaman94 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 15:33

Alright, interesting points, but there's some confusion. Please read the following carefully..

1) The reason you need a Driving License is because, if you win, you need one to claim the prize (driving the real VAG Trophy car) as it currently entails the winner driving the car on a track day. Most race circuits in the UK require that you have a Driving License for track days; that is the rule of the race circuit and isn't something that we or the sponsor have made up to exclude people. This also means that people from other countries with a full driving license are eligible as well, but of course you'd need to be able to get to the UK and we, or the sponsor, can't pay for that. It might be possible to take the prize out of a track day and onto private land, eg an airfield, in which case you won't need a driving license. You will need to be able to drive a car though, the sponsor may not be happy letting, say, a 14-y.o. reign of their expensive race vehicle.

2) We aren't giving people with a driving license more "privileges" or anything like that. You just need one to claim the prize, at the end of the day. Just like any other competition, there are T&Cs to abide by, and that is currently one of them.

3) We will need to talk to the sponsor about hand-downs of the prize if that's what people want. There may be other people who might be rather annoyed if Best Buddy A wins and gives the prize to Best Buddy B, or we end up with people harassing etc the winner for the prize. The prize also cannot be traded for anything of monatary value, eg sold for cash or items, as that is unfair on the sponsor and other competitors.

4) There will be a North American VAG Trophy series that is being set up, so if you want you can still race the same series but without the Driving License issue. Obviously it will be later in the day/evening to suit the US timezones.

5) In regards to proof of license, unless we ask all competitors to send us a copy of their license, we'll just have to take your word for it. Obviously you'll look a bit stupid if you win and you don't have a license though.

6) Because of point 5, it does appear that the License issue only effects a select few at the end of the day; those who are at the very top of the standings. If you're a little slower than the fastest drivers then it doesn't make any difference to you, and I understand the rule may be unfair to you.

7) I should make it clear that currently the prize is being given out to the winner of Class A. Because of that, it seems clear that the rule of "Class A for License holders only" rule makes more sense. There will be a prize for the winner of Class B but that is being arranged; it won't require a driving license though.

8 ) This is not a replacement for TCC. It's just a similar formula in the same timeslot.

Over the next few days I will be taking into consideration the issue and discussing with staff etc. As I said, we want to be able to make as many people happy as possible while still being fair.

In terms of allowing people to race, there are these options:

A) All entrants must have a Driving License (UK or not).
B) Class A for License holders (Prize of Track Day), Class B for those without (Another prize).
C) Reverse of B).
D) Four classes: Class A with license; Class A without; Class B with license; Class B without.
E) Anyone can enter; the highest-scoring driver with a License claims the prize.
F) Anyone can enter; the top-scoring driver gives away the prize if they don't have a license (if this is acceptable by the sponsor)

Please discuss and try to avoid arguments. If it comes down to it, there may be a community vote on those above options.

This is a tricky situation and it's not something that's really been done before by us. We're trying to be fair for everyone involved and we don't want people causing a ruckus halfway through the series because of this-and-that.


Last edited by Standaman94 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 15:45; edited 4 times in total







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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by xebot360 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 15:35

I like option F the best


Last edited by xebot360 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 15:41; edited 1 time in total

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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by HCR Solar on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 15:40

Id say do B but allow the Winner of B to get a Prize like you said without a Driving License like you said, that way everyone has a shot at getting a prize and everyone is happy in my opinion if no 1 wants to race the B Class, then like Cowboy Said you cant make everyone Happy if people struggle in the B Class COmpared to the A Class PM me and ill try and help you out with Tunes and Lines and all that stuff, but Stan i understand what your trying to do dude, so i stand by the option of B Smile




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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by HCR Solar on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 15:41

xebot360 wrote:I like option E the best

id just do option B dude, that way every Class Gets a Prize makes it easier for scoring points also within the Tables but thats my way of avoiding more arguements and all that lol. weve had our say now id say.




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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by xebot360 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 15:53

Solar Flar3 wrote:
xebot360 wrote:I like option E the best

id just do option B dude, that way every Class Gets a Prize makes it easier for scoring points also within the Tables but thats my way of avoiding more arguements and all that lol. weve had our say now id say.

I would like option B but what may happen is the guys who cant get the VAG test drive will be put in Class B which is essentially cars that can't be tuned fully which is a bit meh. If it was the highest scorer of the eligible for the test drive and the highest non- eligible guy gets a prize but all race in the same group

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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by MysticV 247 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 15:56

Option A is best based on the highlighted statements from Stan. If two series can run side by side (one for licence and one without) then maybe that can work. Licence and non licence should not compete together on track. Giving away the prize should not be allowed either by non licence holders. What's the point in trying to win a prize, finishing second overall only for the non licence series champ to give it to say the 9th placed driver. Completely unfair.

I think for once in quite a while tora have got it right first time around. They should be applauded for getting the prize in the first place and we should support their efforts n trying to provide something more than a ribbon at the end of a series. Stick to your guns tora!
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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by CQR MAGiC on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 16:07

Totally agree Mystic, mixing eligible/non-eligible drivers wouldn't work very well.

I prefer Option A, but Option B could be a suitable compromise that wouldn't affect the integrity of the competition but still allows those without a licence to enter the series (albeit maybe not in their preferred class).
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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by AdamWatson99 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 16:07

Option D E F. I don't mind out of them due to I don't have a driving Licence due to age but I would like to enter this series, I think it will be unfair that those without a driving Licence shouldn't race if Option A is chosen





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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by connor7195 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 16:30

Option D is best sounding to me, drivers though without a license should have another vinyl on their car to identify whether they can claim the prize or not.
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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by Sub Zero Nova 2 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 16:36

does it have to be a driving liscense
ive got my full ped liscense
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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by Flyin Mikey J on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 16:46

CQR MAGiC wrote:Totally agree Mystic, mixing eligible/non-eligible drivers wouldn't work very well.
.

Why?

Its not as if everyone at TORA w/o a license is a full blown Muppet on the track, or those w/licenses are shining god-like individuals.


I think that the race should be open for all as usual, with the prizes granted to the highest eligible finisher. Excluding anyone would dilute the series.


Last edited by Flyin Mikey J on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 16:49; edited 1 time in total


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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by xebot360 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 16:49

Flyin Mikey J wrote:
CQR MAGiC wrote:Totally agree Mystic, mixing eligible/non-eligible drivers wouldn't work very well.
.

Why?

Its not as if everyone at TORA w/o a license is a full blown Muppet on the track, or those w/licenses are shining god-like individuals.

I agree with you Mikey. I don't see why it would be an issue to be honest but if we raced with the guys that are eligible, there would need to be a difference with decals e.g different coloured numbers

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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by HCR Solar on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 16:51

Sub Zero Nova wrote:does it have to be a driving liscense
ive got my full ped liscense

driving a Ped is so easy, ive got a full forklift license doesnt mean jack to a UK Driving License haha




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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by Sub Zero Nova 2 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 16:52

include all and add em all up and at the end the highest liscence ranker will win the trackday and non liscense somthing else like a special poster (not one from draw) and a sig
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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by Standaman94 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 16:55

xebot360 wrote:
Flyin Mikey J wrote:
CQR MAGiC wrote:Totally agree Mystic, mixing eligible/non-eligible drivers wouldn't work very well.
.

Why?

Its not as if everyone at TORA w/o a license is a full blown Muppet on the track, or those w/licenses are shining god-like individuals.

I agree with you Mikey. I don't see why it would be an issue to be honest but if we raced with the guys that are eligible, there would need to be a difference with decals e.g different coloured numbers

I think the point he is trying to make was my initial one. With or without licenses has nothing to do with skill, more to do with fairness in the scoring.







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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by CQR MAGiC on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 17:00

Correct Stan, the licence requirement has no bearing on capability it's purely about eligibility and fairness.
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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

Post by xebot360 on Sat 21 Feb 2015 - 17:10

CQR MAGiC wrote:Correct Stan, the licence requirement has no bearing on capability it's purely about eligibility and fairness.

I'm not trying to be mean when I say this but you stay away for a while, come back and then you start saying your opinion and that everyone else is wrong. Also if this is gonna happen why don't you set up another series like this but only allow it for people who aren't entered in this

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Re: MSA TORA Maximum Group VAG Trophy - General Discussion

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