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TORA TEC Silverstone 12H: General Discussion

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Post by MAB170294 Mon 24 Oct 2016 - 16:51

Personally id like to see full damage and the proper 2rhr track used
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Post by F4H Hakkinen Mon 24 Oct 2016 - 17:31

MAB170294 wrote:Personally id like to see full damage and the proper 2rhr track used

I feel the same about it but let's see what TJ finally decides. I'll do whatever but would prefer the N24 layout.
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Post by HCR Hamish Mon 24 Oct 2016 - 18:19

I'm not sure lapping cars will be an issue on this track. Stints just aren't long enough.
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Post by Freheliaz Mon 24 Oct 2016 - 18:50

It's not only up to TJ to decide on what track we drive. All of the TEC team decides that.

But all that info will come soon.
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Post by F4H Lotterer Mon 24 Oct 2016 - 20:10

I'd like to see some form of qualifying rule so we don't see GT cars slowing down the TC class again.
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Post by F4H Hakkinen Mon 24 Oct 2016 - 20:21

Freheliaz wrote:It's not only up to TJ to decide on what track we drive. All of the TEC team decides that.

But all that info will come soon.

Ah I wasn't aware. Hopefully this all gets finalized soon.
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Post by HCR Motorhead Mon 24 Oct 2016 - 20:35

F4H Lotterer wrote:I'd like to see some form of qualifying rule so we don't see GT cars slowing down the TC class again.

Hopefully the track's nature with a high full throttle percentage should keep all the GT cars in front, especially as they'll be running low downforce too.

Also, hopefully we can get 2 decent lobbies which should stop such a great pace delta emerging in the one lobby.
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Post by PTG Chungus Mon 24 Oct 2016 - 20:55

Focusatze wrote:i think its the combination of both Razz

For me it was also a really great race, specially the time and duels with ATR Dan was a lot of fun! Thanks for that dude.

I just had one little incident with a TCC but i also was not really happy with the overlapping in general.

At first it was really hard to overtake in a corner with the Porsche, because if you came out of the ideal line you are really [Censored].
Also the Porsche drives a really different line in some corners, sometimes you need to drive a corner really wide to have full grip at the end.
Sometimes a TCC car then was on the inside and tried to battle....

Most of the maneuvers was really close and i really cant understand why. i drove so often through a corner next to a TCC car - why they cant just go off the throttle for a half second and let me pass. Most of them just dont do that and so it costs 2 seconds for the GT, 2 for the TCC and you risk a crash. Sure - you have youre rights and you also have a battle in your class, but it really helps both if you have a look on the other. 
In the rules it states "You must find your own way around the slower car". It is hard ish in that 911 but i ran it in watkins glen and lapped slower gt cars on the line and let me tell you a decent tune works.

moves will always be tight in multiclass same for LMP and gt. at least you had the decentcy to wait  to pass unlike some...
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Post by PTG Chungus Mon 24 Oct 2016 - 20:56

F4H Lotterer wrote:I'd like to see some form of qualifying rule so we don't see GT cars slowing down the TC class again.

Simple rule of thumb is to put "Lower teir" drivers in either fast cars or TC no real way of yanno managing it

Also the GT cars that where "Slowing down other drivers" Where racers only just getting back into the swing of things and a BMW That was clearly left to die by the BOP.
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Post by Senna Mon 24 Oct 2016 - 21:02

Sub Zero Nova 2 wrote:
F4H Lotterer wrote:I'd like to see some form of qualifying rule so we don't see GT cars slowing down the TC class again.

Simple rule of thumb is to put "Lower teir" drivers in either fast cars or TC no real way of yanno managing it

Also the GT cars that where "Slowing down other drivers" Where racers only just getting back into the swing of things and a BMW That was clearly left to die by the BOP.

I was compromised hugely in both stints by slower GT cars. In fact, I ended up beating a couple. That shouldn't happen.
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Post by andiosterfeld Tue 25 Oct 2016 - 9:31

As I expect there wont be a Driver of the Day Thread I will write some compliments down here Very Happy

Thanks Adam for the racing, especially the real fight for position in the early stages of both stints. Even after that we were so close the tension was always high. However in both stints we got seperated after the 3rd stop (??) and I was able to widen the gap a bit. But thanks again, you made those stints exiting for me.

Also, I have to give a hugh shoutout to K4mi who jumped in the AM Team to help us secure our second podium of the season after multiple 4th place finishes. I hope we can keep a driver of such quality in the AM Team =D

Thanks to Focusatze for the design, he had to sacrifice time he otherwise would have spent in Horizon. Laughing


Problems I had:
There were a few GT cars, I remember a Viper and a McLaren who were challenging me while I was lapping. That was as enjoyable as it was risky, because not only once the cars nearly crashed into me after I passed them.

Even though I was very unlucky lapping the TCC cars I had no real problems, except one crash a couple of feet before the pit entrance.


Finally I want to add the following: Don't place the rain stins after each other. We have seen many double stinters because of that, including me.
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Post by HCR Motorhead Tue 25 Oct 2016 - 11:49

Whoops, let's sort that Wink
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Post by HCR generaltso Tue 25 Oct 2016 - 16:28

Senna wrote:

I was compromised hugely in both stints by slower GT cars. In fact, I ended up beating a couple. That shouldn't happen.


maybe something like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/107%25_rule

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Post by F4H Hakkinen Tue 25 Oct 2016 - 17:44

HCR generaltso wrote:
Senna wrote:

I was compromised hugely in both stints by slower GT cars. In fact, I ended up beating a couple. That shouldn't happen.


maybe something like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/107%25_rule


How do you implement something like that though? I agree with this however. We just cannot have GT cars driving slower than TCC. The gap for the ring at the moment is about 22-24 seconds between GT and TCC in these current builds and I can see guys being about that - slower than the top GT car.
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Post by TJSteel Wed 26 Oct 2016 - 2:01

F4H Hakkinen wrote:
HCR generaltso wrote:
Senna wrote:

I was compromised hugely in both stints by slower GT cars. In fact, I ended up beating a couple. That shouldn't happen.


maybe something like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/107%25_rule


How do you implement something like that though? I agree with this however. We just cannot have GT cars driving slower than TCC. The gap for the ring at the moment is about 22-24 seconds between GT and TCC in these current builds and I can see guys being about that - slower than the top GT car.

The issue does need to be sorted and i do like the idea of a 107% rule,

What I propose we try for this one is have the dev team and anyone else that wants to, complete a mock quali session in the GT cars, and the best lap time set be used as a benchmark, I can then calculate what 106% of that would look like so you have a target to hit in practice, giving some leeway for the actual qualifying events, by Q1 we may have a faster time to aim for and in turn the cutoff would be changed.

Q1 would occur 2 weeks before the race and see every single driver compete in a qualifying session, any individual driver within the GT class which is then below 107% of the fastest lap would be given 2 options, change class and race TCC and re-qualify the week after in Q2, or drop out of the race, a DNQ would be an automatic forfeit.

Q2 would then give the drivers a chance to re-qualify, should you be in GT and outside of the 107% mark by then you would automatically forfeit the race.

The 107% rule shouldn't apply to TCC as a slower TCC wouldn't be holding up any slower classes, and should they be getting lapped by another TCC then the blue flag rule would apply and they should let the leaders through (blue flag doesn't apply to a GT passing). this would also prevent us from denying anyone the chance to race.

Good idea? bad idea? let me know, if you like it, I'll apply it as I'm all for improving the race experience for everyone.
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Post by HCR Motorhead Wed 26 Oct 2016 - 2:19

I'm hoping some factors can mitigate class crossover before we have to consider individuals.

If we have 2 lobbies then that severely reduces the risk as the slowest GTs will be in a different lobby to the fastest TCC.

Also I'm hoping the GTs will be just considerably faster due to their straight line speed and low wing; they ought to be well down the road for good.
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Post by F4H Hakkinen Wed 26 Oct 2016 - 2:50

Chad (Stingray) has some builds for TCC (contact Eggy) if you need them. This work has been already and could be tapped into. Martin (Lotterer) also has builds from the N12 last Decembe rat TURN which were close enough to stock builds in TCC. Going close to stock may mitigate this concern.

I do however think that a percentage rule is good. It'll certainly raise the standard of drivers purely by making them practise instead of turning up on the day and ruining the event for others.

Jay - I think the cut off can be established for GT without having to do a 'Q1' approach. You've enough guys who would be willing to give you that number and in the rules the cut -off can be stated for GT. Another approach would be to find out the optimum or expected TCC pole and then decide how much or a difference is needed to the slowest GT allowed? Is it 5 seconds? 10 seconds gap?
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Post by Senna Wed 26 Oct 2016 - 2:56

HCR Motorhead wrote:I'm hoping some factors can mitigate class crossover before we have to consider individuals.

If we have 2 lobbies then that severely reduces the risk as the slowest GTs will be in a different lobby to the fastest TCC.

Also I'm hoping the GTs will be just considerably faster due to their straight line speed and low wing; they ought to be well down the road for good.

Yeah, this rule should be brought in but I'd only enforce it if we end up in the one lobby. Hopefully the Nurb will bring in greater numbers and we can get away without it. I don't think anyone here wants people to be unable to race what they want to race.
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Post by TJSteel Wed 26 Oct 2016 - 4:23

F4H Hakkinen wrote:Chad (Stingray) has some builds for TCC (contact Eggy) if you need them. This work has been already and could be tapped into. Martin (Lotterer) also has builds from the N12 last Decembe rat  TURN which were close enough to stock builds in TCC. Going close to stock may mitigate this concern.

I do however think that a percentage rule is good. It'll certainly raise the standard of drivers purely by making them practise instead of turning up on the day and ruining the event for others.

Jay - I think the cut off can be established for GT without having to do a 'Q1' approach. You've enough guys who would be willing to give you that number and in the rules the cut -off can be stated for GT. Another approach would be to find out the optimum or expected TCC pole and then decide how much or a difference is needed to the slowest GT allowed? Is it 5 seconds? 10 seconds gap?

So if we don't have a Q1 / Q2 style, you're suggesting that the drivers should be given a time before hand, and if they can't hit it we drop them? So therefore having people only be allowed in a class or the race if their pace is up to standard?

the 107% rule though i think is a good way to calculate it, if we do this i can run a benchmark session where we have people aim to set the fastest lap and us the best of the session for the benchmark, we would need this done in advance I'd say though so getting builds out quick would be needed so both classes can be tested.
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Post by HCR generaltso Wed 26 Oct 2016 - 6:21

In Super GT series, a slightly different 107% rule is being used. The base time was being calculated by averaging time of top three vehicles in their class rather than by taking pole position time. All drivers in the non-seeded team must finish within this time in order to qualify for the race. However, teams which could not qualify in official qualifying sessions, may still be allowed to retry in following day's practice session, providing reasons such as accidents. In this case, the 107% of top three cars in practice session's will be used instead, in return, they will start at the back of the grid. In race using knockout format, a separated qualifying will be launched prior the knockout qualifying to decide teams which are allowed to take part in the race.

this is pretty much like what TJ suggested. only i like the idea of using averaged times rather than one person's pole time.

also if a team cannot meet the 107% rule would they still be allowed to drop down to TCC if not allowed to run in GT?

F4H Hakkinen wrote:. It'll certainly raise the standard of drivers purely by making them practise instead of turning up on the day and ruining the event for others.

in addition to a 107% rule, things like more organized (mandatory?) practice sessions and things like driver "licensing" would help. i know everyone thinks things like driver ratings are anathema, but it'd open up a lot of possibilities in terms of race organization
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Post by F4H Hakkinen Wed 26 Oct 2016 - 13:15

HCR TJSteel wrote:
F4H Hakkinen wrote:Chad (Stingray) has some builds for TCC (contact Eggy) if you need them. This work has been already and could be tapped into. Martin (Lotterer) also has builds from the N12 last Decembe rat  TURN which were close enough to stock builds in TCC. Going close to stock may mitigate this concern.

I do however think that a percentage rule is good. It'll certainly raise the standard of drivers purely by making them practise instead of turning up on the day and ruining the event for others.

Jay - I think the cut off can be established for GT without having to do a 'Q1' approach. You've enough guys who would be willing to give you that number and in the rules the cut -off can be stated for GT. Another approach would be to find out the optimum or expected TCC pole and then decide how much or a difference is needed to the slowest GT allowed? Is it 5 seconds? 10 seconds gap?

So if we don't have a Q1 / Q2 style, you're suggesting that the drivers should be given a time before hand, and if they can't hit it we drop them? So therefore having people only be allowed in a class or the race if their pace is up to standard?

the 107% rule though i think is a good way to calculate it, if we do this i can run a benchmark session where we have people aim to set the fastest lap and us the best of the session for the benchmark, we would need this done in advance I'd say though so getting builds out quick would be needed so both classes can be tested.

Well what I am saying is that I can already tell you what I think pole is going to be so you wouldn't need to test or hold a preliminary qualifying session. I agree, we need builds ASAP. I wouldn't be opposed to getting the N24 section up in the next week along with preliminary builds that are subject to change. You'll get feedback from the community. There are countless benefits to releasing the information early for teams.
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Post by ATR DAN Wed 26 Oct 2016 - 14:13

Focusatze wrote:For me it was also a really great race, specially the time and duels with ATR Dan was a lot of fun! Thanks for that dude.

You're very welcome mate. It was a very interesting and awesome battle in the first two stints. Really enjoyed so thank you as well for the very clean and fair driving. There were times when we could have pushed each other off the circuit but somehow didn't.

Those first two stints I did were far greater than even I anticipated. Two 4th's in the Aston was just superb. Even thought in the 2nd stint I was doing really well to keep up with F4H ForceOne. But then by mid stint, he just started to pull away and then I thought "OH!" LOL Razz Razz
I feel sorry for my team mates Adam and Ben who stints didn't go as smoothly as mine but not too disheartened with a 7th place finish. Unlike the last TEC race, it was just really great to be able to have a car to fight with other competitors instead of having to try & fail to defend my position all the time like I did at Spa.

Many congratulations to HCR Scuderia & F4H Red Sonja for your class wins in the event.

Roll on to the Nurburgring now. Very Happy Very Happy
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Post by MAB170294 Wed 26 Oct 2016 - 14:49

Im stuck on a fence about this, yeah i can see where your comin from about TCC cars being faster than GT. But at the same time i think its horrendous that stoppin someone racingwhat they want just because they cant be as quick as the fast guys. Might be worth looking back at the post made in the community section regarfimg respect and why people race on TORA, if you stop them racing just because they are slower than you then it could make them lose the 1 thing keepin them together. We are ALL on tora to jave fun so please dont boot people out just because theyre not quick enough and like drivin GT cars.
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Post by ESV Moshys Wed 26 Oct 2016 - 14:59

i agree with mab. you cant expect everyone to be on the same level as the faster people its about having fun. I'm sure you can work around them. when they cause crashes, cut you up and start blocking/ defending another class then that is understandable. remember they aren't trying to race you they are in another class.
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Post by MAB170294 Wed 26 Oct 2016 - 15:04

TechnologicMau5 wrote:
I have seen people post multiple times before, honestly sharing their struggles, and how they've used online racing, and our community to help them get by. I always thought I understood. I sympathized and appreciated how helpful an online escape can be. I've been there before with other games. But tonight, I realized moreover how important TORA can be. It has compounded my feelings of the united duty we all have to each other to keep this a safe place. A place that any of us can use to simply escape our everyday problems, relax, and calm ourselves.

Sure, we won't always agree, and we'll get in each other's way, and we'll make mistakes, but at the end of the day, it's a game. Some of us like to take it seriously and compete. Some of us just like to drive, and don't care where we end up. But some of us need online racing to get us through another day.
Those people are constantly changing too, you never know who in your lobby might be there because they just need a break. Today it was me, tomorrow it will be someone else.
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