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The Unfortunate Truth

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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by DOR stug77 on Mon 31 Oct 2016 - 21:05

+1
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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by TechnologicMau5 on Mon 31 Oct 2016 - 21:13

Heck, I'm pretty sure I even got quoted as being staff somewhere recently Razz








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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by Mr Driv3 on Mon 31 Oct 2016 - 22:04

xGATOR383x wrote:
This has been a problem for many of the series across TORA this year theres no formality in signing in for the race. Some series run that form others don't and it makes it very confusing of how to sign in. We need to have one way to sign in for all series and stick to that ONLY... whether it is the digital form or manually typing IN.

Can't agree with you more. Can we please get the sign in doc put onto ALL new series. It works when it's up meaning we can do a website-wide rollout of it. What's more we can lock the thread it's in so nobody replies to it by accident thus forcing them to use the doc. That's one problem sorted. Now, I wasn't there and I don't care to listen to a blow by blow story of the night in question.

$hit happened, you guys had what, a 90 minute delay in one go or over the whole race evening? Doesn't matter, that's unacceptable either way. I'm saddened to hear BGT got off to a bad start and unfortunately that's how ABRC got going. Quali and 2 sprint races took 3 hours. That was pretty unacceptable too. We told Stan and by week 3 we took an hour off that time. The reason it got faster is because firstly, Stan was a little rusty at hosting, so he had to get back into it. My question is (because I wasn't there,) do hosts need practice before hosting? Do we need to guide new and/or existing marshals through how to set everything up and get them into the habit of: setting up early, giving them access to the correct dox, showing them how to use the dox, maybe even practicing which settings they need for race night seeing as we still can't save and load lobby settings on next gen? (FU T-10)

Things can always be done to make $hit better. Appoint new staff members, have practiced hosts for big events, have yourself online and ready to be invited OR if you know who your host is, JOIN THEM! I am getting tired of telling people this. Don't sit there like a limp biscuit and then complain when we leave you out by accident. Yeah we are supposed to invite everyone BUT XBL doesn't always get invites through and sometimes people are missed for whatever reason (which is why you should have your forum name the same as your GT) There is always something to be done to help the situation. If you notice the hosts are having trouble, offer help if you can supply it. We are volunteers yes, we volunteered to do this for everyone so hopefully it wouldn't hurt to help a little back. I'm not saying nobody is at fault. Clearly people are which is why the next BGT will not be 90 minutes late because as people we can change and improve. I will hopefully be available to help host it so an extra pair of hands will make lighter work.

I shall leave my essay here before you get too bored to read on. I will say though that I don't like how for all of the time I have been at TORA everyone is wishing to have the FM4 "team" back. Unfortunately they are not here anymore for various reasons so you're left with us lot that only volunteer to test, host and run these series for you guys. Sorry we aren't the dream team but we're doing our best.







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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by JGROVES1996 on Mon 31 Oct 2016 - 23:29

Not involved in BGT but I'm liking the constructive ideas here!

I've no doubt that TORA staff will get any issues sorted, just hope that everyone is constructive and not abusive or rude.

Like Matt said, the staff are volunteers and they do a great job catering for so many series going on at once with so many participants! (That's why TORA has been the one site I've stayed on consistently for the last few years!)

It'll get sorted, no doubt. Then we can get back to what we're all here for. Broom Brooms Racing.



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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by Flyin Mikey J on Mon 31 Oct 2016 - 23:30

My issue is I use a totally different doc set, without the automation.

IMO, the auto doc has no way of checking if someone's attempt to enter glitches, leaving them out. The "old way" of posting with a sign in thread allows for all to see if someone did enter on time.

However, if push comes to shove, and ALL series MUST use that format... See ya. My series will leave TORA with me. Simple as that.


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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by Mr Driv3 on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 2:39

So... If you don't get your way, you're just going to leave TORA? That's... * sigh * ok sure whatever...







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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by CAR Harmonic on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 2:56

I agree with a lot of what FO said, but there are a couple of things in the OP I'd like to address...

F4H ForceOne wrote:My time is valuable. I have other things to do. Sim racing should be a hobby, not a full time job. 
Consider this point from a staff member's perspective. Yes, they should be upheld to do what they say they'll do; however, things come up, mistakes slip through, and race events don't always play out as we hope. These guys are doing it out of their own kindness and on their own time, so SOME credit is due, but improvements could definitely be made.

Next...

F4H ForceOne wrote:You have series' where ONE GUY does the builds for over 10 cars.
Given the uproar from the past couple weeks, it's pretty obvious this is aimed at me. I'm on a Dev TEAM, yet I was the ONLY one putting up suggestions to progress the BoP process. Do you think I wanted to do hours of testing by MYSELF just to get things done on time? Hell no, but reactions (like this post) could've been even worse if I didn't, and I didn't want to be held responsible for that since I've committed to being a member of Dev Team. I thought I did a pretty damn good job for Silverstone, but if a car is a tenth or two quicker than the rest (which is more than good enough based on previous TORA events), there's not a whole lot I can do when I'm balancing things with little to no help.

Bottom line - if you're not happy with how things are run here, feel free to step away for a while, and then come back once you feel things are more to your liking.
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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by CAR Harmonic on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 2:58

Mr Driv3 wrote:. Appoint new staff members, have practiced hosts for big events, have yourself online and ready to be invited OR if you know who your host is, JOIN THEM! I am getting tired of telling people this. Don't sit there like a limp biscuit and then complain when we leave you out by accident. Yeah we are supposed to invite everyone BUT XBL doesn't always get invites through and sometimes people are missed for whatever reason (which is why you should have your forum name the same as your GT)

I usually tell people this, but even I ran into an issue with this for BGT - both my qualifying AND race hosts were appearing offline.
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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by TechnologicMau5 on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 3:01

We also need to remember that TEC is the only place where we manipulate the BoP to try and find the best balance at each individual track. The aim in this case was to balance across a series, where therefore certain cars will have advantages in some rounds.








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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by Mr Driv3 on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 3:46

CAR Harmonic wrote:
Mr Driv3 wrote:. Appoint new staff members, have practiced hosts for big events, have yourself online and ready to be invited OR if you know who your host is, JOIN THEM! I am getting tired of telling people this. Don't sit there like a limp biscuit and then complain when we leave you out by accident. Yeah we are supposed to invite everyone BUT XBL doesn't always get invites through and sometimes people are missed for whatever reason (which is why you should have your forum name the same as your GT)

I usually tell people this, but even I ran into an issue with this for BGT - both my qualifying AND race hosts were appearing offline.

OK Well that has got to change. That's not ok. Again the word unacceptable comes to mind.







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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by F4H Venom on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 8:14

If there is one thing I'd like to say it's that i hope the TEC builds are ran differently next season. Balancing the cars race to race doesn't seem to have the best results. Sometimes the balancing is slightly off or as harmonic said only one person is left with everything which is a bit unfair. My suggestion would be too cut the amount of cars (at least in the gt3 class) that you can choose from and give a set build over the season. If the majority of the bop team works hard once then they shouldn't have to do it again. Plus this promotes different cars having different strengths and weaknesses and you could see different winners from race to race. I wouldn't mind taking part in bop if it's done this way next season. Pick 4-5 gt3 cars that can be matched pretty well from track to track and drop this current system which is just add as many cars as possible. I know this doesnt have much to do with british gt but i saw the tec builds mentioned so i figured I'd give my constructive feedback on that
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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by Flyin Mikey J on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 8:21

Mr Driv3 wrote:So... If you don't get your way, you're just going to leave TORA? That's... * sigh * ok sure whatever...

Fair call, as I didn't include all the details, nor do I plan on doing so. But, let me add one fact for you to ponder...

In the previous posts, series I host come up time and time again in "TORA series that are run on time". A huge reason for this is I use simplified docs rather than the complex automated docs. Yes auto sign in is so easy, but the docs that run that little feature are so complex that one wrong move and we're two 'king hours behind 'king schedule.

For me, being on time is far more 'king important than the auto'king sign in docs.



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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by HCR Bellmond on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 10:43

Use them properly then, TJ has developed these docs in his own time to ensure they are simple and easy to use whilst ensuring they save as much time as possible.

Not 'king rocket science flower!!
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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by F4H Diablo on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 12:06

The only way you can mess up the docs is if you input text over formulas or try to move parts of a row that shouldn't be moved. They are fool-proof when everything is locked.

Auto-sign in CAN be useful if it works properly, though doing it manually works just as well, only that you have to manually enter the data in, but this was things are not likely to be missed.

David- BoP was fine at Silverstone. Going forward, hopefully we will have more input from the Dev team (including myself) and things will be just fine.


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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by CAR Harmonic on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 13:19

Unframe wrote:If there is one thing I'd like to say it's that i hope the TEC builds are ran differently next season. Balancing the cars race to race doesn't seem to have the best results. Sometimes the balancing is slightly off or as harmonic said only one person is left with everything which is a bit unfair. My suggestion would be too cut the amount of cars (at least in the gt3 class) that you can choose from and give a set build over the season. If the majority of the bop team works hard once then they shouldn't have to do it again. Plus this promotes different cars having different strengths and weaknesses and you could see different winners from race to race. I wouldn't mind taking part in bop if it's done this way next season. Pick 4-5 gt3 cars that can be matched pretty well from track to track and drop this current system which is just add as many cars as possible. I know this doesnt have much to do with british gt but i saw the tec builds mentioned so i figured I'd give my constructive feedback on that

We normally did do TEC like that, but people complained about cars being good at every track, so the staff wanted to try the current BoP method (which sucks, in all honesty). We're definitely returning to the traditional one-build-per-car style for next season. Perhaps then the huge number of cars won't be such a pain, but cutting a few wouldn't hurt regardless. You'd be a good addition to Dev Team, too - the more the merrier.
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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by HCR Motorhead on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 13:37

CAR Harmonic wrote:
Unframe wrote:If there is one thing I'd like to say it's that i hope the TEC builds are ran differently next season. Balancing the cars race to race doesn't seem to have the best results. Sometimes the balancing is slightly off or as harmonic said only one person is left with everything which is a bit unfair. My suggestion would be too cut the amount of cars (at least in the gt3 class) that you can choose from and give a set build over the season. If the majority of the bop team works hard once then they shouldn't have to do it again. Plus this promotes different cars having different strengths and weaknesses and you could see different winners from race to race. I wouldn't mind taking part in bop if it's done this way next season. Pick 4-5 gt3 cars that can be matched pretty well from track to track and drop this current system which is just add as many cars as possible. I know this doesnt have much to do with british gt but i saw the tec builds mentioned so i figured I'd give my constructive feedback on that

We normally did do TEC like that, but people complained about cars being good at every track, so the staff wanted to try the current BoP method (which sucks, in all honesty). We're definitely returning to the traditional one-build-per-car style for next season. Perhaps then the huge number of cars won't be such a pain, but cutting a few wouldn't hurt regardless. You'd be a good addition to Dev Team, too - the more the merrier.

That was a decision made very early in the year if I'm not mistaken. That time of year was when we had to balance the Prototypes too and it was clear that the cars would be very polar during a season, good at some tracks and dog crap elsewhere. So they made that decision. But we will definitely run season long builds next time.

But yes, the enduros next season should be pretty good.

Let's move back to British GT Smile



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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by Foreu2env on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 15:14

F4H Diablo wrote:The only way you can mess up the docs is if you input text over formulas or try to move parts of a row that shouldn't be moved. They are fool-proof when everything is locked..

I have entire "hours" of experience with Google Docs so forgive my ignorance.... but I am an Excel master.. are you saying that the sheets aren't setup to lock content in formula cells? just trying to understand the issue since I do this kind of thing every day...
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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by CAR Harmonic on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 16:02

They ARE locked to those who have been assigned to input data, but since Matt is the head honcho here, one would reason that he has access to EVERYTHING, not just the unlocked data cells. That's probably where the error occurred.
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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by HCR Solar on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 17:36

im kinda annoyed at the fact that, Streaming was involved in this, FO i appreciate that you would jump in and Commentate, but when i Run my own Stream aswell, what is growing quite rapidly may i add, i ain't gonna put it to 1 side and be like yano 1 My own "Followers" Can wait while i do something what i dont feel respected for, a little bit of gratititude towards the 2 people that have single handled the streaming by our selves whilst racing, and not even to get a "Thank You" is a P!ss take in my honest opinion, and i dont need to sit here and listen to people whine and moan about Cars been OP everyday, it gets Old, and therefore im Done.

i First applied for Media Team Also, at Start of the Year when i did 12-14 hours of LIVE STREAMING for TORA, and i think i got 1 thank you from 1 STAFF Member, and the rest happened to be F4H Drivers, and other drivers in the Race themselves, and then to get told "Your Not joining Media Team" after putting them hours in at the time, was a complete p!ss take again, only Reason im on Media Team Now is cause i did live comms over on TURN and we happened to Merge, i would Reckon i wouldn't be there if the Merge did not happen, and people wonder why i don't wanna race here anymore. PEOPLE That do the Hard WORK in whatever Role there in DO NOT GET RESPECTED BY SOME PEOPLE!, CAUSE YOU GUYS SEE IT AS "WE HAVE TO DO THIS CAUSE WE HAVE ROLES ON THIS SITE" How about No STFU and Get of your High Horse and come and do something ya self if ya not Happy.




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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by LRT Breeze on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 17:56

CAR Harmonic wrote:I agree with a lot of what FO said, but there are a couple of things in the OP I'd like to address...

F4H ForceOne wrote:My time is valuable. I have other things to do. Sim racing should be a hobby, not a full time job. 
Consider this point from a staff member's perspective. Yes, they should be upheld to do what they say they'll do; however, things come up, mistakes slip through, and race events don't always play out as we hope. These guys are doing it out of their own kindness and on their own time, so SOME credit is due, but improvements could definitely be made.

Next...

F4H ForceOne wrote:You have series' where ONE GUY does the builds for over 10 cars.
Given the uproar from the past couple weeks, it's pretty obvious this is aimed at me. I'm on a Dev TEAM, yet I was the ONLY one putting up suggestions to progress the BoP process. Do you think I wanted to do hours of testing by MYSELF just to get things done on time? Hell no, but reactions (like this post) could've been even worse if I didn't, and I didn't want to be held responsible for that since I've committed to being a member of Dev Team. I thought I did a pretty damn good job for Silverstone, but if a car is a tenth or two quicker than the rest (which is more than good enough based on previous TORA events), there's not a whole lot I can do when I'm balancing things with little to no help.

I think alot of people will appreciate the effort you do put in for the builds, it should never be left on one person to do them, especially with the number of cars available. I know i would hate to have to do that. And hopefully all this will be resolved, im sure everyone wants the same outcome and it be enjoyable for the majority (As we know you cant please everyone).
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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by Flyin Mikey J on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 18:04

HCR Bellmond wrote:Use them properly then, TJ has developed these docs in his own time to ensure they are simple and easy to use whilst ensuring they save as much time as possible.

Not 'king rocket science flower!!

The TEC docs are wonderful.

However, the series docs seem buggy, and every big delay such as we saw in BGT seems to be blamed on the docs. So, I avoid that sort of delay by opting out of them.

Sorry if that offends anyone, but that's just how I see it. Why f'k up something that actually is proven to work without a hitch?


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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by Mr Driv3 on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 18:47

Flyin Mikey J wrote:
HCR Bellmond wrote:Use them properly then, TJ has developed these docs in his own time to ensure they are simple and easy to use whilst ensuring they save as much time as possible.

Not 'king rocket science flower!!

The TEC docs are wonderful.

However, the series docs seem buggy, and every big delay such as we saw in BGT seems to be blamed on the docs. So, I avoid that sort of delay by opting out of them.

Sorry if that offends anyone, but that's just how I see it. Why f'k up something that actually is proven to work without a hitch?

I can see where you're coming from and I think that it's totally fair. However, the dox only do what you tell them to which means that (aside from corruption) they do what we tell them and if they're wrong then it's a human error and not mechanical.







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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by DOR stug77 on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 19:22

If I could just say one thing (no offence to anyone) the events of Sunday night were disappointing but it's happened and more importantly in the past with ....I assume lessons learned.......we are now on Wednesday and yet all I see is bickering between members/staff.......so my proposal.....is......build a bridge and get over it.
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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by F4H ForceOne on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 20:24




F4H ForceOne wrote:You have series' where ONE GUY does the builds for over 10 cars.
Given the uproar from the past couple weeks, it's pretty obvious this is aimed at me. I'm on a Dev TEAM, yet I was the ONLY one putting up suggestions to progress the BoP process. Do you think I wanted to do hours of testing by MYSELF just to get things done on time? Hell no, but reactions (like this post) could've been even worse if I didn't, and I didn't want to be held responsible for that since I've committed to being a member of Dev Team. I thought I did a pretty damn good job for Silverstone, but if a car is a tenth or two quicker than the rest (which is more than good enough based on previous TORA events), there's not a whole lot I can do when I'm balancing things with little to no help.

Bottom line - if you're not happy with how things are run here, feel free to step away for a while, and then come back once you feel things are more to your liking.
Just to clarify David, I was suggesting that it's unfair that you have to do the builds without help, not that the builds were poorly done because only one person did them.
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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

Post by F4H Venom on Tue 1 Nov 2016 - 20:37

HCR Solar wrote:im kinda annoyed at the fact that, Streaming was involved in this, FO i appreciate that you would jump in and Commentate, but when i Run my own Stream aswell, what is growing quite rapidly may i add, i ain't gonna put it to 1 side and be like yano 1 My own "Followers" Can wait while i do something what i dont feel respected for, a little bit of gratititude towards the 2 people that have single handled the streaming by our selves whilst racing, and not even to get a "Thank You" is a P!ss take in my honest opinion, and i dont need to sit here and listen to people whine and moan about Cars been OP everyday, it gets Old, and therefore im Done.

i First applied for Media Team Also, at Start of the Year when i did 12-14 hours of LIVE STREAMING for TORA, and i think i got 1 thank you from 1 STAFF Member, and the rest happened to be F4H Drivers, and other drivers in the Race themselves, and then to get told "Your Not joining Media Team" after putting them hours in at the time, was a complete p!ss take again, only Reason im on Media Team Now is cause i did live comms over on TURN and we happened to Merge, i would Reckon i wouldn't be there if the Merge did not happen, and people wonder why i don't wanna race here anymore. PEOPLE That do the Hard WORK in whatever Role there in DO NOT GET RESPECTED BY SOME PEOPLE!,  CAUSE YOU GUYS SEE IT AS "WE HAVE TO DO THIS CAUSE WE HAVE ROLES ON THIS SITE" How about No STFU and Get of your High Horse and come and do something ya self if ya not Happy.

First off I'd like to just say i always enjoy it when you commentate over races or stints you aren't in. You always do a great job. I have to give you mad props because that is something that is not easy on forza 6. The spectating system is so bad for both the viewer and host that putting up with it definitely deserves respect and some thanks. I hope forza 7 has a much more in-depth spectating system so it's more enjoyable for all. I would feel the same way as you do if i sat staring at cars with no helpful hud options and didn't get much credit for it
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Re: The Unfortunate Truth

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