IndyCar Sebring Race 1 Verdict

by **Radiation Louis** Mon 13 Apr 2015 - 2:34

With no evidence and no new information coming from anyone. Myself and all of the TORA US staff have deemed it best that Sebring Race 1's results will be excluded from the championship.

Reasons are that there were no solid results to determine individuals finish time which would have accurately placed all drivers in their finishing positions. Total race time for each driver and a lobby replay are needed to do this, we have neither.

So in conclusion all drivers will not receive any points for Sebring 1 but will receive points for Sebring 2. In addition to this, the 0 points will not count as one of your dropped rounds as no one gained or lost anything in the race so effectively this championship is now an 18 race series as opposed to original 19.

Any questions or concerns please ask and let them be known.

by **DDM Driv3** Mon 13 Apr 2015 - 13:58

I have a concern that this is the second time THIS SERIES that a problem like this has happened. The first time it happened was because the lobby host forgot to do his job and save the replay so we had no start time; I can't remember exactly which race this was or who did it (an XPR gamertag for sure) but we sat in the lobby after the race thinking about how to solve the problem. We finally all decided on a "start time" which was 3:12 I believe and amazingly it worked and nobody noticed. I have a fair amount of respect for anyone who manages a series like this and props to XPR for taking the job. However, it hasn't exactly been a smooth ride from the controversial decisions to have only cosmetic damage on some tracks to the poll for a drop round halfway through the series. At this point in time myself and my Griptek team-mates are pretty much only doing this series now because we always finish what we start. It would be much appreciated if in future you use a host who:
a) knows what they're doing (take pictures of the results, remember the start time and/or saves the replay)
b) has done hosting before (either in this series or another)
b2) If they haven't hosted before (either this series or another) then walk them through what needs to be done and maybe get them to write a list so they don't forget anything.

I hate to be the one to do this because I really don't like complaining (I know it doesn't seem like that; I only complain when something needs sorting out) but sometimes it has to be done and this time it does have a good reason. "As Real As It Gets". To be honest, I don't think that the real IndyCar has ever had to drop a round because nobody got the results. You and I both know that things like this are not in keeping with TORA's running standards and that it's not a good look when things like this happen.

What I'm trying to do is give some kind of constructive criticism so that it's not all bad, bad, bad. Unfortunately I know that you all know this so I'm not sure how to finish this other than saying that I hope this doesn't happen again and that I hope we're all sensible at Bathurst. Sorry for being so rude and upfront about this, I just feel like this kind of thing shouldn't be a problem for the "first online motorsport organisation to be recognised by a real world governing body."

by LMR Deftone MX Wed 15 Apr 2015 - 4:42

Mr Driv3 wrote: It would be much appreciated if in future you use a host who:
a) knows what they're doing (take pictures of the results, remember the start time and/or saves the replay)
b) has done hosting before (either in this series or another)
b2) If they haven't hosted before (either this series or another) then walk them through what needs to be done and maybe get them to write a list so they don't forget anything.

Sounds like you're the perfect candidate! You've been an excellent host and help during Pro GT, which is very similar duty to this. Something to consider as finding hosts is almost always a problem for Organizers

by **DDM Driv3** Wed 15 Apr 2015 - 20:33

Yeah I'd be happy to do it DT. No problems with me. I just don't always make the races because of the time zone differences so I'd prefer not to say I'll be there when I know I may have fallen asleep by then.

by LMR Hybrid Thu 16 Apr 2015 - 14:43

i say give points for qualy order. or scrap the whole event. if someone had a better race 1 than there championship rival than there race 2 then they lose out which isnt really fair.

by XPR Roadrunner Thu 16 Apr 2015 - 17:21

@mr drive

This last race was something that was somewhat out of our control. This series is run by Gillard and I help him run it, despite not being a marshal or tora staffer of any kind. I've run many series before in the past, which is why this isn't an issue. The first time we had a problem was due to technical difficulties on my end (my phone camera decided to have a moment) and in the moment of trying to get the picture of the results, the replay was not saved. A competitor noted the start time and we went with that. Gillard and I discussed it at length, hence why it was not a problem.

As for the most recent event. All organisers and tora marshalls were in the A lobby, and nobody in B lobby. So we instructed the host of B lobby to take a picture of the results, but misunderstood a small but crucial detail in that we also needed the end times too, not just the order. The host was also not able to save the replay because he wasn't able to overwrite a replay. This has happened to everyone at some point and we can attribute this to the fact that **** happens in forza.

This will happen every once in a while.

While I can agree with you that more people need to sign up to be marshals, there will likely be a time where nobody that has ever hosted before will volunteer to host if there is nobody available. Even then there will always be problems somewhere along the way.

All that we ask is that everybody save the replay and take a screenshot (double tap home button, press y button) when viewing the complete results. That way we will always have the information needed to compile the results.

by **TechnologicMau5** Thu 16 Apr 2015 - 20:28

I really don't care much about what or how it happened, what I do care about is the deflection:

XPR Roadrunner wrote:This last race was something that was somewhat out of our control. This series is run by Gillard and I help him run it, despite not being a marshal or tora staffer of any kind. I've run many series before in the past, which is why this isn't an issue.

I don't care if it wasn't directly your fault, it's XPR's series, and XPR has full responsibility for how it's run, PERIOD. Something like this should never be shrugged off as a non-issue, regardless of the justifications.

XPR Roadrunner wrote:As for the most recent event. All organisers and tora marshalls were in the A lobby, and nobody in B lobby. So we instructed the host of B lobby to take a picture of the results, but misunderstood a small but crucial detail in that we also needed the end times too, not just the order. The host was also not able to save the replay because he wasn't able to overwrite a replay.

Again, if a substitute host is needed, it is your own responsibility that all instructions are explained in full detail, and that they are fully understood and prepared. If your replay queue is full, too bad, you're overwriting the first one you can. I have had to do this multiple times before for Pro GT and IndyCar itself, simply because I have lost faith in the reliability and I know how important the replay is for this series. Simply instructing the whole lobby to save the replay goes a long distance in avoiding these issues, of which I have not heard mentioned in the past few IndyCar races I've partaken in.

XPR Roadrunner wrote:This has happened to everyone at some point and we can attribute this to the fact that **** happens in forza.

Deflection, again Evil or Very Mad

XPR Roadrunner wrote:This will happen every once in a while.

No...no it won't. It has never once happened since I have been here, and organizers everywhere better damn make sure it doesn't continue.

XPR Roadrunner wrote:While I can agree with you that more people need to sign up to be marshals, there will likely be a time where nobody that has ever hosted before will volunteer to host if there is nobody available. Even then there will always be problems somewhere along the way.

This is probably the only sentiment I can agree with. There should be a push from staff to seek out more good, reliable marshals, and any marshal should be involved with the organization of any series they are in. I believe this can be attributed to an increase in negligence as we've all waited for P.CARS. There will always be some issues, but losing or not properly recording the results should never be the issue.

XPR Roadrunner wrote:All that we ask is that everybody save the replay and take a screenshot (double tap home button, press y button) when viewing the complete results. That way we will always have the information needed to compile the results.

Agreed.

I mean no personal offense by what I've mentioned, I just hope we can all accept the responsibilities we've been given, and improve upon our mistakes. Here's to last few races I will have on Forza 5, and to the era of P.CARS at TORA starting May, 8th. I look forward to seeing you all on track again soon Cheers

by **TechnologicMau5** Thu 16 Apr 2015 - 20:35

I RickyTan I wrote:i say give points for qualy order. or scrap the whole event. if someone had a better race 1 than there championship rival than there race 2 then they lose out which isnt really fair.

I believe sorting by Qualifying is the most fair way to put it. Those who showed up are only getting penalized by omitting the round, as those like myself who couldn't make the event, still get to keep one of their dropped rounds.

by **Radiation Louis** Thu 16 Apr 2015 - 23:08

TechnologicMau5 wrote:
I RickyTan I wrote:i say give points for qualy order. or scrap the whole event. if someone had a better race 1 than there championship rival than there race 2 then they lose out which isnt really fair.

I believe sorting by Qualifying is the most fair way to put it. Those who showed up are only getting penalized by omitting the round, as those like myself who couldn't make the event, still get to keep one of their dropped rounds.

We looked into basing off the qually results but you said it already ricky. If someone had a better qually than their rival they lose out which again isnt really fair especially to those who dont qually well but race well. Race 1 has been treated in terms of the championship like it was never scheduled.

Mau5 no one was penalized anything at the same time no one gained anything by exluding that particular race. Again in terms of the championship its like the race never happened. No one is losing one of their dropped rounds from this. So now your two worst races outside of sebring 1(because no one gained or lost anything) and the indy 500 will be dropped

by **Radiation Louis** Thu 16 Apr 2015 - 23:20

XPR Gillard wrote:So in conclusion all drivers will not receive any points for Sebring 1 but will receive points for Sebring 2. In addition to this, the 0 points will not count as one of your dropped rounds as no one gained or lost anything in the race so effectively this championship is now an 18 race series as opposed to original 19.

by XPR Roadrunner Thu 16 Apr 2015 - 23:26

Mau5...you aren't seeing what i'm saying.

Firstly; Yes, the host misunderstood about the picture. Yes his replay list was full, but the game wasn't allowing him to overwrite any of them either. So not his fault, not our fault. Either way we'd be where we are right now.

Secondly; The game screws up from time to time and prevents us from doing certain things. I've had issues where the game glitches and it takes me straight to the lobby menu and I don't even have a chance to save the replay or look at the results. OR the game could crash (its not like it hasn't happened either). OR, or, or, or, etc etc. 99 times out of 100 nothing going wrong with the game, so just because this was one of the 1/100 times is no cause for alarm. The other time was because my phone crashed, so unless you want to take that up with LG, just chalk it up as "an act of god" and move on.

Thirdly; Even if we had 10 marshalls signed up for this series, if a race qualifying results had all 10 in one lobby, we'd be back to getting a green host(ess) to run the other lobby..so the potential for mistakes is still there. Again, nothing that we could prepare for. Actually this happened once before this series as Gillard qualified last in A lobby and elected to start on pole in B lobby to ensure a veteran host. So unless you want to pluck people who deserve to be in lobby A down to lobby B, that's not your call to make.

Lastly, this is a TORA series, so I don't know where you are getting at with your statement. Having 2 XPR guys running/hosting it, doesn't mean its our series. TORA has as much responsibility as the hosts (regardless of team affiliation) to make sure it runs smoothly. Thank you

by **Ax4x Mikey J** Fri 17 Apr 2015 - 0:57

Since all lobbies count as one, and it is entirely possible that a host has cam issues at the moment of finish, I would strongly suggest that EVERYONE take a snapshot of the results or save their own replays.

Simple fix IMO.

by LMR Hybrid Fri 17 Apr 2015 - 1:08

XPR Gillard wrote:
TechnologicMau5 wrote:
I RickyTan I wrote:i say give points for qualy order. or scrap the whole event. if someone had a better race 1 than there championship rival than there race 2 then they lose out which isnt really fair.

I believe sorting by Qualifying is the most fair way to put it. Those who showed up are only getting penalized by omitting the round, as those like myself who couldn't make the event, still get to keep one of their dropped rounds.

We looked into basing off the qually results but you said it already ricky. If someone had a better qually than their rival they lose out which again isnt really fair especially to those who dont qually well but race well. Race 1 has been treated in terms of the championship like it was never scheduled.

Mau5 no one was penalized anything at the same time no one gained anything by exluding that particular race. Again in terms of the championship its like the race never happened. No one is losing one of their dropped rounds from this. So now your two worst races outside of sebring 1(because no one gained or lost anything) and the indy 500 will be dropped

thats why you should drop the round as a whole not just half. because where positions are so jumbled up in race 2 due to people missing races already. race 1 is the only time they can realistically get a good result due to being screwed over in race 2. so only having race 2 results means qualifying and race 1 was pointless. which isnt fair to people who turned up and qualfied/raced well. ifif the 2nd race was on a finishing order of race 1 itl be understandable to have race 2 results stand. but its not justifiable imo. you cant keep saying no one gained or lost anything because clearly people have

now where there is dropped round your now going to change it up an say you loose your two worst races which it shouldn't be the case in any series. it should be a round as a whole that gets dropped not your worst two races. so having this as "single event" is crap

by **Radiation Louis** Fri 17 Apr 2015 - 2:08

I RickyTan I wrote: now where there is dropped round your now going to change it up an say you loose your two worst races which it shouldn't be the case in any series. it should be a round as a whole that gets dropped not your worst two races. so having this as "single event" is crap

First of all when the vote came up the question stated you're worst 2 races would be dropped. part of my last post on said thread when the motion was carried stated

XPR Gillard
Motion Carried 2 worst races outside of Indy 500 will be removed from points at seasons end.

I then locked the thread, no one PM'ed me, no one said anything in the general discussion thread objecting to 2 races being dropped instead of the whole round (meaning 2 races in one night).

So to say i have changed it to say you lose your two worst races is not true because i haven't changed anything that hasn't been asked to be changed by the majority of those who race in this series.

In fact this series had it's rules, regulations and all relevant info in place a long time before the season kicked off and it wasn't until after round 5 that dropped races or rounds or anything being dropped even came into discussion. WHICH SHOULDN'T BE THE CASE IN ANY SERIES!

by LMR Hybrid Fri 17 Apr 2015 - 2:46

fact is the series didn't have rules about scenarios such as results being lost which is why this discussion is happening

by **TechnologicMau5** Fri 17 Apr 2015 - 9:31

XPR Roadrunner wrote:this is a TORA series, so I don't know where you are getting at with your statement. Having 2 XPR guys running/hosting it, doesn't mean its our series. TORA has as much responsibility as the hosts (regardless of team affiliation) to make sure it runs smoothly.

Yea, I get that, so why are only 2 XPR guys running it?

As for the dropped round logistics:

Each driver will have their 2 lowest scoring rounds dropped.

Driver A misses a race, gets 0 points for 2 rounds. Those 2 rounds are dropped, all other points they earned are locked, their worst performance stays on their score.
Driver B misses a race, gets 0 points for 2 rounds. However, 1 round gets removed from the score, so they only drop 1 round. Then 1 other round gets dropped, which either allows them to miss another round, or their worst performance gets dropped.

I guess you could say anyone who scored 0 for round 2 loses 2 dropped rounds, but then that isn't really fair for someone who may have made the first round but had to leave. The only way I can see to be as fair as possible is to have the whole event scored or not.

by **TechnologicMau5** Fri 17 Apr 2015 - 9:46

I mean no offense to you guys, for the most part this series has been quite enjoyable, and a nice change of pace for myself Smile

What's done, is done, I'm just giving my 2 cents on the matter. I understand the reflex to be defensive to try to keep things peaceful, but situations like this demand responsibility be taken. Shifting blame towards the game and other TORA staff simply makes it worse. Yes, stuff was messed up, let's accept it and move on.

If it were me, I would take full responsibility and poll for the most appropriate outcome. However, I am Canadian after all, so maybe that's just me being too nice and over-accountable...

by **Radiation Louis** Fri 17 Apr 2015 - 15:32

Everything being said is being noted, i always learn from bad situations. The reason 2 xpr guys are running is because this xpr guy asked someone who turns up regularly and is someone i can trust to get the info that is needed to ensure results are done properly. Last meeting i asked someone who had limited hosting experience and i thought i was thorough enough on explaining what was needed. Clearly i wasn't thank you all for making that more clear than it already was. Then we (TORA US staff including LMR Deftone, flyining mikey j, lmr darth mario and myself) came to the decision to exclude race 1 from the official results as there was nothing to go by except finishing order and hear say as stated before. Race 2 had a grid, a race, all replays saved, all results gathered including finish times thus why that race was included in the final results.

by **Radiation Louis** Fri 17 Apr 2015 - 15:39

To clarify what is happening on dropped races it will be your 2 worst individual races that will be dropped from the points. So if your worst scores are 100 points from long beach race 2 and 99 points from laguna seca 2 those 2 races will be dropped. As was voted on by everyone that voted. If this is what is causing all of this commotion then clearly we have had a break down in communication and clarity on the situation which i will take full responsibility for not being vlear on that with you guys and will ensure that doesnt happen again.

by **Radiation Louis** Fri 17 Apr 2015 - 16:30

To clarify what is happening on dropped races it will be your 2 worst individual races that will be dropped from the points. So if your worst scores are 100 points from long beach race 2 and 99 points from laguna seca 2 those 2 races will be dropped. As was voted on by everyone that voted. If this is what is causing all of this commotion then clearly we have had a break down in communication and clarity on the situation which i will take full responsibility for not being vlear on that with you guys and will ensure that doesnt happen again.

by **TechnologicMau5** Fri 17 Apr 2015 - 20:22

Let's not make this the topic of the night guys, keep the conversation on Bathurst for tonight's race Cheers

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