Why is the BMW M3 Allowed to Compete in GTE?

and then paint it in a 2007 Team Halfords memory for nostalgia's sake

nickyf1 wrote:

narboza22 wrote:Its not like Honda could show up with a Civic and be like "Huh, this isn't going to be competitive in its stock form, so we are going to add a quad turbo W16 that puts out 1200hp to level the playing field."

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2011/06/17/car-feature-gt-gt-gt3-carbon-bodied-honda-civic.aspx

Y U DO DIS.

The moral is.

Don't fuss over the rules, just enjoy the damn fast racing cars doing damn racing god damnit!

Are we watching the same sport? Motorsport is as much about the rules as it is the cars. Why do you think Audi wins every year?

cause peugeot are french and the french never win anything. . . . .

narboza22 wrote:Are we watching the same sport? Motorsport is as much about the rules as it is the cars. Why do you think Audi wins every year?

Who's won Petit Le Mans and Sebring for the last 2 years, a Peugeot. Peugeot have been quicker than the Audi since 2008/09 and have been unlucky at Le Mans 2010 due to a spark plug was it? Audi have dominated Le Mans in recent history but they have not dominated Sportscar racing as a whole. The rules make more of a difference than the cars, the rules define the cars and certain rules will suit certain cars!

narboza22 wrote:This wouldn't matter to be if BMW were as slow as Jaguar, but they are the fastest GTE car in the ALMS, and I don't think that's fair to the other teams that BMW are allowed much bigger performance breaks in order to make a car that I don't think fits in the series competitive.

Well You're only seeing the car's performance in Factory team's hands. Look at the Corvette's this year. Granted they are in different classes (1 in AM the other 2 in PRO) the car in the AM class with it's pro driver ran no where near the pace of the factory cars.

But all a manufacturer has to do is get what ever 2 door, RWD car they want in their product range homoligated and it can race, no matter how much horsepower is taken away. BMW did it right in this case. The chose a car that is their sports car.

lfcnicklfc wrote:

narboza22 wrote:Are we watching the same sport? Motorsport is as much about the rules as it is the cars. Why do you think Audi wins every year?

Who's won Petit Le Mans and Sebring for the last 2 years, a Peugeot. Peugeot have been quicker than the Audi since 2008/09 and have been unlucky at Le Mans 2010 due to a spark plug was it? Audi have dominated Le Mans in recent history but they have not dominated Sportscar racing as a whole. The rules make more of a difference than the cars, the rules define the cars and certain rules will suit certain cars!

Ok, you're missing my point. I should have said Audi/Peugeot win everything. I was pointing out that a diesel always wins because of the rules.

AudiSport Louis wrote:

narboza22 wrote:This wouldn't matter to be if BMW were as slow as Jaguar, but they are the fastest GTE car in the ALMS, and I don't think that's fair to the other teams that BMW are allowed much bigger performance breaks in order to make a car that I don't think fits in the series competitive.

Well You're only seeing the car's performance in Factory team's hands. Look at the Corvette's this year. Granted they are in different classes (1 in AM the other 2 in PRO) the car in the AM class with it's pro driver ran no where near the pace of the factory cars.

But all a manufacturer has to do is get what ever 2 door, RWD car they want in their product range homoligated and it can race, no matter how much horsepower is taken away. BMW did it right in this case. The chose a car that is their sports car.

The AM Corvette that Labre ran was one of last year's factory cars, as per the rules saying all AM entries must be at least a year old. That would explain the shortage of pace, not to mention, with no disrespect meant to the Labre guys, they are just not as fast as the Pratt and Miller drivers. If they were, they'd be driving the factory cars.

My point about the BMW is that they are not losing power to their road car, they are gaining it, and a lot of it.

Then that is just advantage BMW. Nothing in the rules states you can't take a road going car that has... we'll say 150 HP (for the sake of argument) to bring it up to the maximum power level allowed. If rules say 500 hp is the limit you can do 1 of 2 things. Detune your car to fit that criteria, or upgrade it. However if it were up to me. I would rather have a car that needs to be detuned as there are parts that have been proven that can work at that power level so it would be a shorter amount of time for develpoment. If I had to add power there would be a lot of unproven engine parts that could break and could make development take a very long time.

I'm aware that the rules allow it, I just think that its wrong. I don't think that the M3 fits in the ALMS/LMS as a GT car. Its a great road car, and next year it will be a great DTM car, but it isnt in the same category as Ferrari, Porsche, or Corvette.

Im sorry but what????????????

BMW can not make sports cars??? or they shoudlnt be allowed to race the M3?

BMW are racing the M3 as its customer base are the key, if you can show a M3 beating a Porsche, Ferrari etc you are doing a great marekting job and marekting the M3 as a prosche beating car improves your sales and widens your market base.

I think you should ask for a ride around the Nurburgring in the passanger seat of a M3 then you would see why they are in the "GTE"

Did I say the M3 is not a sportscar? No. I said that I don't think it fits in a series with Porsches, Ferraris, and Corvettes.

And I'm sure it does help their sales, as it would it they won in DTM, VLN, WTCC, or even NASCAR if they bothered. That's irrelevant however. I'm not saying that BMW has nothing to gain by competing in the ALMS, I'm saying the M3 is not the type of car that should be racing in the ALMS. Compare the M3 to the other GTE cars. Its more or less what a generic road car looks like, with some added wheel arch flare for good measure. Then you have low slung Ferraris, Corvettes, Porsches, Fords, and Lotuses that all have a supercar profile.

You seem to be under the impression that I think the M3 is a bad car. I in no way think that the M3 is a bad car. In fact, I think its one of the best cars you can buy if you aren't insanely rich.

Have you ever seen an M3 on the road? they're just as low sitting as the others, they just chose to go with a more conventional look if you ask me I would buy a BMW over a Jag, a Ford or a Corvette. Just because it doesn't suite your preference doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed to race in a certain race series. I have riden in a BMW (no not an M3) but it was stylish very comfortable and had the power to get you somewhere

Im seriously beginning to think this thread is jus an argument for he sake of an argument. I agree fully with Duncan and Louis.

AudiSport Louis wrote:Have you ever seen an M3 on the road? they're just as low sitting as the others, they just chose to go with a more conventional look if you ask me I would buy a BMW over a Jag, a Ford or a Corvette. Just because it doesn't suite your preference doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed to race in a certain race series. I have riden in a BMW (no not an M3) but it was stylish very comfortable and had the power to get you somewhere

Yes, I have seen an M3. I have also been inside an M3, and I have also been inside a Corvette. The M3 is much more of normal car than the Corvette is. Even BMW would admit this. The M3 is just a spec'ed up version of the 3 Series, which is a generic road car.

Your personal preference as to which car you would buy is completely irrelevant to this conversation. Neither is the fact that the M3 is "stylish very comfortable and had the power to get you somewhere." I do not disagree at all with that, but it has nothing to do with argument I'm making.

My problem is that BMW is running a car that has no equivalent road car. If you watch the ALMS and decide you want a Porsche, Ferrari, or Corvette, you can go buy a road car that matches up with the race car you were just watching. If you decide you want a BMW, you can go buy an M3, which is a very good car, but it does not measure up to its race spec cousin. Is that not the whole idea of sportscar racing? That the cars being raced are essentially race versions of a road car?

Why does it bother you that BMW is racing a car which is well within the rules?

If this really bothers you, why don't you have similar threads up for the BTCC, the WTCC, WRC etc.. All series in which there are cars that are far superior to their road going counterparts.

Can't you guys just accept that people have different opinions about things?

If this thread continues down a flaming path then I will be forced to lock it. I don't want to, but I don't want you guys getting all uppity and falling out over a simple thing like this.

narboza22 wrote:Did I say the M3 is not a sportscar? No.

Yes.

narboza22 wrote: I just finished watching the rest of the 24hrs, and even the Eurosport guys were ripping on the M3 as basically being a brick with wheels. All of the GTE cars are essentially supercars except for the Jag and BMW. I'm not following the train of thought behind racing what is essentially a touring car in a sportscar series. I'm all for having BMW being part of the action, but shouldn't the ACO be making them race a car that fits with the series?

What are you arguing then, that BMW should be banned altogether? Like I was trying to say before they use the M5 and M6 as touring cars so how would those be any different than the M3 other than horsepower? You are acting like they get special suspension upgrades and such when it's just straight line speed and nothing else. I honestly don't think it would make much difference, you could argue the same thing about the Corvette, why can't they pick a different car to fit in the rules?

nickyf1 wrote:Why does it bother you that BMW is racing a car which is well within the rules?

If this really bothers you, why don't you have similar threads up for the BTCC, the WTCC, WRC etc.. All series in which there are cars that are far superior to their road going counterparts.

The 3 Series fits with the BTCC and the WTCC which is why I don't have a problem with it. Does BMW compete in the WRC?

Richy wrote:Can't you guys just accept that people have different opinions about things?

If this thread continues down a flaming path then I will be forced to lock it. I don't want to, but I don't want you guys getting all uppity and falling out over a simple thing like this.

I don't think there is any flaming going on.

AAR FACEPALMER wrote:

narboza22 wrote:Did I say the M3 is not a sportscar? No.

Yes.

narboza22 wrote: I just finished watching the rest of the 24hrs, and even the Eurosport guys were ripping on the M3 as basically being a brick with wheels. All of the GTE cars are essentially supercars except for the Jag and BMW. I'm not following the train of thought behind racing what is essentially a touring car in a sportscar series. I'm all for having BMW being part of the action, but shouldn't the ACO be making them race a car that fits with the series?

What are you arguing then, that BMW should be banned altogether? Like I was trying to say before they use the M5 and M6 as touring cars so how would those be any different than the M3 other than horsepower? You are acting like they get special suspension upgrades and such when it's just straight line speed and nothing else.

When did I say the M3 is not a sportscar?

I don't think BMW should be banned. Their participation is a good thing, but: I don't think that they should be able to make their racecar more powerful than their roadcar because they chose to run a car that is not as aerodynamic as the competition. If they raced the M6 instead of the M3, I would not have as much of a problem with it because it would not need the same performance breaks and it isn't as common of a roadcar as the M3.

narboza22 wrote:My problem is that BMW is running a car that has no equivalent road car. If you watch the ALMS and decide you want a Porsche, Ferrari, or Corvette, you can go buy a road car that matches up with the race car you were just watching. If you decide you want a BMW, you can go buy an M3, which is a very good car, but it does not measure up to its race spec cousin. Is that not the whole idea of sportscar racing? That the cars being raced are essentially race versions of a road car?

I see what you're saying now. to me a race version of a car should always be a more Bad@$$ version of the road going car. BMW have gotten this part right. Now if you don't see where the technology transfers over, there is a lot more than you think. The frame itself is a street legal frame as are all the other GT cars that race in GTE the suspension is very similar yet completely different. The engines of every GTE car has to have a few of the same things in commin with the road versions like the Fuel injectors, same type of engine style (Flat-6, V-8, V-6... what ever) and a few minor things like that.

I agree with all of that.

If BMW plopped their race engine into a road going M3 and sold it as a hardcore GT3 RS like car, my issue with them would go away.

CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!?!?!?!?!

well BMW havn't really done that before but maybe one day they will, it would be bad arse if they do... i would get one.

Narbozza when you said they were bringing a touring car to a sportscar series it made me think you were saying that it's not a sportscar.

AudiSport Louis wrote:well BMW havn't really done that before but maybe one day they will, it would be bad arse if they do... i would get one.

they only did that when porsche pitched a [Censored] fit about their GTR...