TORA Series Qualifying

***DISCLAIMER***

Before you read any further:

This is not a promise of any change, this is a vote to gauge reaction to an idea held by me. It has not been discussed with other staff at this point.

With the impending change of qualifying format, at least in ISCC, and possibly in WGT and NGTC (this depends on confirmation from Duncan and Scot respectively) to a 15min open qualification session (no set number of laps to run - find your own free air), I would like to gauge reaction to the possibility of adding to this change in the following way:

Collisions will remain ON.
It is your responsibility to find clear air to run in.

Now, to add some spice(!):

CLEAN qualifying laps will be rewarded by taking priority over DIRTY laps.
At the end of qualifying, the times will be taken, and marked C or D, which is clear from the ordering on the score table.

Yes, you may get a lap "dirtied" by someone drafting you/drafting someone else, but that's TOUGH LUCK - that is part of the skill/strategy/luck element of timing your qualifying run during the allotted 15mins.

What I would appreciate here is a simple YES or NO comment below. If NO please put a quick reason for consideration.

I would have put this as a standard poll style post, however I actually want to know who feels which way, as there may be a split between "new" members and "old", and I want to be able to gauge that.

I'm not really looking for this thread to become a discussion at this point for alternatives/tweaks (I know there's a bunch of you that will suggest collisions OFF straight away. I'm aware of that thought, however collisions OFF removes the strategy element I'm trying to introduce this way).

If you have any ideas like that, please PM them to me.

Yes

WGT Quali rules updated to include 15 minutes of quali time as in line with ISCC.

YES

Oh and Yes to the below idea -

My preference would be for it to be fully one way or the other - by which I mean either:
- collisions off and clean laps (i.e. a hotlap style qualifying session) or
- collisions on and dirty laps allowed (i.e. real world qualifying)

yes

Yes sounds good

No. Purely because im rubbish and i always end up setting dirty laps.

YES!

No not going to have every lap ruined by someone trying to find space
(With the clean lap rule anyway)
Yes with dirty laps

Yes to 15mins for all..

clean vs. dirty is a bit dodgy as someone drafting you dirties your lap.. you can't account for guy infront or behind and what pace they are running at, you can make as much space as you like, but someone coming within 12 car lengths and trashing your session seems a bit unfair.

so its yes/no from me.. but if both have to go together then its yes/yes from me.

Do you not think that in 15mins you could sit at the side of the track and find a gap in which to set a clean lap?

Not really i dont mind waiting at the start but im not going to keep stoping to let the tyres get nice and cold just incase someone who isnt anywhere near me might catch abit of slipstream. Seriously with the way you have always done the times 15min quali is a great idea but if you have to get clean laps you might aswell turn collisions off. (which is rubbish)

OK. I'll wait for more comments to coming in before addressing queries like this.

gadge2010 yes

orrell2010 yes

VVV Bobcat yes

have not spoke to gadge and orrell yet but this is what i think they would say. will change if they think diifferently

No - only with regards to the clean lap thing. I am not a good qualifier and I would always end up with either dirtying my laps unintentionally or getting a draft or trying to let someone past and ruining their lap. Yes if that wasn't included. Same as berty

What if we ran in exactly the same way but with with collisions OFF, and discouraged people from passing through another car? i.e. you still look to run in clear air, but you don't get affected by draft, and if you have to pass another car, you go around not through it.

I see what you mean even with collisions off people still want space its a pain having someones car inside you. Cant see many people driving round a ghost though lol

I definitely support a longer session (15 minutes is ideal) - 2 flying laps in the NGTC isn't even long enough to warm up the tyres! lol

My preference would be for it to be fully one way or the other - by which I mean either:
- collisions off and clean laps (i.e. a hotlap style qualifying session) or
- collisions on and dirty laps allowed (i.e. real world qualifying)

Either would be fine for me!

PLOW MAGiCturbo wrote:I definitely support a longer session (15 minutes is ideal) - 2 flying laps in the NGTC isn't even long enough to warm up the tyres! lol

My preference would be for it to be fully one way or the other - by which I mean either:
- collisions off and clean laps (i.e. a hotlap style qualifying session) or
- collisions on and dirty laps allowed (i.e. real world qualifying)

Either would be fine for me!

Totally agree with that

I have to address this issue as the touring car head, in regards to NGTC and TCC.

As an evolution of the standard TCC rules we have run since inception in 2008, we have always, without exception, run the two hotlaps qualy rule.

And now, three years and five seasons on, it's an issue. Hmmm.

There are very good reasons we run the to these rules, and it's as a part of the entire experience that we run this way. In the real world, qualifying is never going to be perfect every time. You're not going to get the perfect conditions every time you go out, and it's designed exactly to simulate the pressures to put in a good lap.

God knows how many times I've tanked round a track in practice and set what I think is a reasonable qualy time, only for the pressure to replicate it to get to me and end up throwing it off the track. Or the number of times I've been held up and had qualy ruined for me by another driver, most notably for me in last year's Abarth series, where I was challenging for wins and a top spot in the championship. For me, and for everyone who's run this way previously, that was part of the event. If it went bad, so be it.

Yes, granted it throws up anomalies where someone may find themselves in a lower lobby and be considerably faster than the rest of the group, and that's where for this year I introduced lobby switches between races, so if someone did have a bad qualy and was quicker, they could work themselves up to a higher scoring lobby.

Also, in terms of the pursuit of echoing real-life, the NGTC rules were loosely based upon a mixture of the new BTCC NGTC regulations, and the 90's Supertouring rules. One of the things I actively wanted to simulate with the TORA NGTC regs was superpole, where you got one lap to set a time and the pressure was on to deliver. The concession to fairness and gameplay was two laps, because that gave you a second chance if things went bad first time, but the concept is still there.

Now I realise we have taken on a lot of new members recently, who may be used to these events running very differently. But we have a lot of established members who are used to this way of running to, and this is part of our identity as a series and as an organisation. Qualifying is not a means to an end, it is part of the event.

We've opened our doors for other people to use our forum to run their own events, and people are free to run their events the way they want without our interference. I think that considering the rules and format are available pre-season, I think it's reasonable to expect you to have actually read those rules, so that when you sign-up to a series you are agreeing to run by those regulations, because that's the way we want them to run.

While I will consider the opinions put forward, I'd like you all to consider mine, which are now clear. I have no real consideration regarding GTs or ISCC as I am not principally involved in those series and do not run in them, so I'm not really interested in what happens in them in anything other than a TORA administration role. But as the Touring Car Principal, I do feel very strongly about what I consider a damaging change to a series I have evolved and championed.

So again, I will listen to opinion, but I vote for no change regarding the NGTC qualifying rules. And while people may not like it, my personal, AND I STRESS PERSONAL, opinion is that if people want to race in what has been a good series so far, they man up and grow a pair of balls.

Who was slagging off the touring cars? Thought this was about the ISCC?

No, as per OP, this is about a change to ALL TORA series qualifying regs.

And I never said anyone was "slagging them off", but the change requested is all encompassing.

Didnt think anyone said they were all changing.

for me personally this is only about ISCC quali and I care not about how the other event qualis are conducted.