TORA Clubman Cup Meeting 3 - Rules & Discussion - 14th August 2012 - 8pm BST

CQR CHRiS wrote:

Defconluke wrote:The difference between Sport and Race suspension at this level is going to be fractions of a second unless you really, really, really screw up your settings with the Race part.

What's more important is car choice and car build. Those two can find you whole seconds.

I dont really agree with this. Build can change from track to track but overall CQR in the touring cars found more time tuning the suspension for each individual track. The track we originally tuned it round as many others will find by the end of it there was probably minimum of 1second faster found in suspension setup alone.

Look at the current restrictions for these cars and add some of the common 'bad build' parts. Race clutch, Race Flywheel and a Sport gearbox that isn't needed. These 3 parts will cost anything from 10PI up to 20 PI and, for example, on the MR-S I ran last night would cost 17PI points leaving me with 10bhp less. That results in a tested laptime difference of 8 tenths compared to my qualifying time and 1.3 seconds to my new fastest build time.

I then took my new, better, build and took the race suspension off and put the sport suspension on. The very first flying lap was 1 tenth quicker than the build I used last night and just 4 tenths slower than my new build.

There may be another couple of tenths to eek out of the suspension from the new build but that would still mean that sport suspension is better than a bad build by well over half a second.

Comparing the MR2 to the RCZ, I was 8 tenths slower than the qualifying time from last night and 1.3 seconds away from the new, faster, build on the MR-S yet again when in the RCZ. Just imagine how much slower it would be with a bad build on that car - you'd be looking at well over a second between a bad build on an average/bad car and a good car with sport suspension.

These are why I say build and car choice are more important than tuning, because they are what my tests always show me. I'm not trying to argue but I just can't look at what my results show me and agree with what you say at the same time.


P.s. - a classics series would be sweeeeeeet

I just want to throw in my two cents even though i havn't been involved in this too long.

I feel it's important for TORA to have somewhere without aero-effected cars for people to come and learn some racecraft. Driving with and driving without aero are two very different disciplines (at least in my experience)

I personally feel the clubman cup shouldn't have adjustable aero as it makes the driving harder for beginers (variable grip dependant on speed + pposition relative to other cars) it's another variable to unbalance the performance (varying aero/drag dependant on setup) and its unrealistic for what a "Clubman" event would have in real life.

As for race tires, i'll leave that up to you guys however I liked the changing dynamic that the Sport tires provided.

Thats just my two cents...

Slider.....Agreed.

We already have touring car, let's have something else too eh.

Agreed, no aero and a mix of FWD and RWD cars would be great. Only just occured to me, but Clubman class is very similar to an internal-CQR series we ran last year (was called touring cars, but was more of clubman series really with a mix of FWD and RWD cars like the Focus, Cupra, BMW 3-Series, Hyundai Genesis, Prelude etc). Similar PI's (470/480), only difference was we had aero, but it wasn't really necessary. Provided some great racing!


CQR Touring Car Championship by cqrtube

I agreed with Mr Slider too. Id like to see cars fwd & Rwd but split into classes by engine size, alot like the old BTCC rules of the 80s.

Ok, for now I am going to revert the Clubman class for Britcar back to the 470 FWD and 480 RWD split. That seemed to give us the best racing so far. I will keep the options the same. It's a bit too late for me to revamp the entire rule set when the cars in general were working and people seemed to be enjoying them.

However, I would like to try out a new set of rules to see how they work.

FWD PI - 495
RWD PI - 485

Power -- 201-249bhp
Weight -- 2201-2699lbs

Mandatory Parts

Race Tyres
Full Roll Cage

Prohibited Parts

Adjustable Aero
Centrifugal Superchargers
Chrome Rims

Other Details

All other parts are optional, including Platform and Handling Upgrades - So Race Brakes/Suspension/Roll Bars are not mandatory. Tyre width is also a choice option now.

Would anyone be up for doing some testing with these rules on a variety of cars and letting me know how these work compared to the last rules?

Richy59 wrote:Ok, for now I am going to revert the Clubman class for Britcar back to the 470 FWD and 480 RWD split. That seemed to give us the best racing so far. I will keep the options the same. It's a bit too late for me to revamp the entire rule set when the cars in general were working and people seemed to be enjoying them.

I think that's a good idea, I think you had it nearly right first time around but moved slightly in the wrong direction! - Q, is that meant to be 480 FWD and 470 RWD?

Only thing I would say about moving it higher (i.e. 495 FWD) is that is getting very very close to being a normal B500 spec car, which might not be a good thing.

Yeah sorry, 480 FWD 470 RWD.

That was something I wanted to avoid, but after building a variety of cars and keeping them in the same weights and power bands and the adding the Race Tyres that was the minimum PIs I could get down to. I don't want to add any more power, and I can't really have less as that would take out a number of cars.

At least it isn't exactly on the 500 mark so cars still need to be built specifically for it, same goes for weight and power bands.

Yeah that's true, and a lot of standard B500 spec cars would be running Forza aero anyway, so will still require Clubman specific non-aero builds

RICHY, gladly tune some stuff, I built and tuned Perry much the entire car list for the clubman anyway. will be on over the weekend if you're up for some trying out

Heres a link to my pictures from Lobby-B which are on My Slider's Storefront Facebook Page.

https://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?set=a.375640485840231.83871.211847382219543&type=1

I've tagged as many of you as I could but feel free to tag yourself if you see yourself.

(I'll try and post some on here when I get time)

cool pics dude

So Richy, any plans for another night of Clubman's anytime soon??

yeah really enjoyed it, I was thinking about having a compact car race, you know Aston cygnet, smart car and a few others, any one want to help with pi setting and such?

Tubbi, speak to me. We are planning on running something just like this on a Tuesday during our TCC break. TCC Juniors or something.

did you have a car list set up yet?

PLOW tubbi wrote:yeah really enjoyed it, I was thinking about having a compact car race, you know Aston cygnet, smart car and a few others, any one want to help with pi setting and such?

Hmm, would the Yaris, Fit, Fiesta, Mazda2 and that phonebooth Mercedes be small enough?

dunno good suggestions though, Tora
Compact Cup car list has not been decided yet

Oops, how did i forget the Fiat 500?

I'm interested to know what kind of times were being done around the various tracks... I'm not convinced that my lap times are quick enough to be competitive, so knowing what some fast times were would help me in my quest to race with you guys.
This clubman class seems like a good level for me to join in with. Are there plans for another? Is it a single race night, or a series over a few weeks?
*edit*
p.s. Silverstone is my favourite circuit for comparison I'm managing anything from a 2:14 to a 2:18 in various clubman spec cars using the rules in the first post here
*edit2*
Ignore me, I should have checked the entry list and taken a gander at the Qualifying times.... Ouch! I'm sloooow compared to you fellas!