TORA MSA GT World Championship 2013 - General Discussion

Thanks Simon!

The Aston specs have not changed since round 6 (I think) of this season, and Ferrari has actually gone down 1 PI!

Cars were unfairly balanced in S9 (hence why 80% of people dropped out), and the changes have gone no way to addressing this. 1 PI off the Ferrari is slightly heavier rims, will have almost no effect on lap times. Aston is, I believe, even faster than the Ferrari, and most of the other GT2 spec cars are significantly slower than both of these cars, effectively two tiers of cars. I guess I shouldn't have said anything and just picked one of the dominant 3 cars and waiting for that to be nerfed in season 11.

I thought season 9 has worked really well. I think it depends of many factors which drivers/cars are quick.

You don't balance drivers, you balance cars

Just for the record , I saw several posts about it, I want some conformation ( and no link), please.

If I register tommorow at 6 GMT in the endurance section with a GT3 class car and I add that it is also for the sprint series, I dont have to register again at 8GMT?

To be fair it's not making the carlist that's difficult, it's the balancing that's the hard work. I don't feel like there has been enough testing. And to be honest I don't think there has been enough of the top lobby people helping with testing. You can always count on people like TPR B0X, CQR MAGiC, F4H Koenigsegg etc to get almost the absolute maximum out of the car fairly quickly, so why not get some of those guys to help out, there's a reason why they're always in the "A lobby".

This brings me to the car PIs. How is it balancing when the Drivers championship winning car has a 1 PI reduction yet the car that finished 2nd is given a 2 PI reduction. But the Mclaren for example which was off the pace at several tracks has no increase so will still be off the pace beacause lets face it.... 1 PI reduction is basically a heavier rim choice, the car will still have the same tyre width and grip levels. Yet the new Jag PI, You can make a better build using 753 PI than 754 PI. That doesn't make sense and if the car was properly tested by someone who has used the car all season and got the most out of it they would've said that 2 PI reduction was too severe and unjust, seeing how it is now further off the pace of the S9 Ferrari 458. To get the Jag down to the new PI you HAVE to take tyre width off the car, losing cornering ability and traction which is a much more penalizing reduction than the Ferrari's 1 PI heavier rim size, that car still has the same grip.

But what's the point in this when I could just jump in to a faster car and go 1 second quicker. And no I won't say the name of this car as I don't want to influence the car selection of other drivers, It's their choice to make and figure out.

And that is the major issue, totally agree Worm. The cars were proven in S9 they are close, with tenths of a second splitting cars. The Ferrari and Jag were seen to be the "dominant" cars, and thus have been reduced. The heavier rims would make at least 0.2 seconds on a 2 minute lap. If you have counteracted this different MAGiC then all well to you, choose it. The only people who made the SLS fast in S9 was Yo Sushi, and they left because of one reason or another.

In terms of people leaving, I may agree that the initial 150 entrants for silverstone left the series, but they didn't leave the series due to GT, they left TORA, and seem the people who will never settle in a whole race series for duration. Heck, most of them haven't playing Forza in months! Numbers will always deplete, and seeing as we still have 50+ per round, I'd say thats a healthly number through research I've done.

Which completely ignores the point raised by Daniel regarding tyre width, I give up

CQR D4N13L wrote:Yet the new Jag PI, You can make a better build using 753 PI than 754 PI.

Why didn't you do this for season 9 and give yourself a better car?

CQR D4N13L wrote:That doesn't make sense and if the car was properly tested by someone who has used the car all season and got the most out of it they would've said that 2 PI reduction was too severe and unjust

Wait, what?

CRA Adder wrote:Just for the record , I saw several posts about it, I want some conformation ( and no link), please.

If I register tommorow at 6 GMT in the endurance section with a GT3 class car and I add that it is also for the sprint series, I dont have to register again at 8GMT?

It's just Sprint Tommorow, as Enduro has been pushed back, but indicate that you are going to do enduro as well.

[quote="mopar4t4"]

CRA Adder wrote:Just for the record , I saw several posts about it, I want some conformation ( and no link), please.

If I register tommorow at 6 GMT in the endurance section with a GT3 class car and I add that it is also for the sprint series, I dont have to register again at 8GMT?

It's just Sprint Tommorow, as Enduro has been pushed back, but indicate that you are going to do enduro as well.[/quote]

sorry disregard. Just register the car as normal, as its guaranteed.

Because the S9 PI was 756 so could have a decent amount of tyre width. But now it's been reduced to 754 you have to remove tyre width physically affecting the cars abilities.

Thanks, again Simon for clairifying the entry form for tomorrow.

Clearly the point is not getting across.

The fastest car in S9, the Ferrari, with most poles, most wins, most points gets 1 PI reduction, which can be achieved by adding heavier rims and not affecting tyre width, which has a minimal effect on performance.

The second best performing car in terms of points, the Jag, gets a 2 PI reduction, which requires removing a tyre width, not a rim adjustment, which has a greater effect on lap time. So the car that was already slower, will now be even further behind. That's UNBALANCING.

The ferrari had two great drivers in it, I dont think it was the fastest car. The Jag was very fast maybe quicker.

Both cars have lost PI and your saying there the fastest, so isnt that Balancing as it brings them closer to the other cars?

I will make my final decisions on both GT3 and GT4 classes later this evening. My issue is that one person is say x,y and z cars are too quick, and then another saying a,b and c are too quick. Different teams and different drivers will find different things about different cars. As organiser I try to keep a neutral head in the aim of creating a series as fair as possible. GT4 was looked at and helped as the same cars were being named again and again, and this needed addressing. I feel its gotten to a point where I am comfortable with my decisions and that will be finalised later this evening.

By then it will be upto the teams and drivers to work off those rules, and if they feel there is a faster car, the it'll be upto them to "take advatnage" of the carlist, and rules given to them.

Jag faster than the Ferrari, are you seriously having a laugh? Jag is at least 0.4s a lap slower

Frankly I feel quite insulted that you think the Ferrari did well because it had better drivers - I guess winning or finishing 2nd in every TORA championship I've entered counts for nothing, 6 wins in the TCC this year, 2 wins in the GTs and SP1 win at Nurb8 (not in a Jag I might add).

Racing teams such as VVV, F4H and CQR keep telling you that cars are unbalanced, but nobody listens.

My understanding of balancing would be never to decrease a cars performance but to increase the cars to that level. If you decrease the Ferrari to the Jag level then decrease the Jag further you've just ended up with exact same situation as beforehand.

but there closer to the other cars so thats balancing. Its not a Ferrari vs Jag championship.

The Jag may be getting closer, but the Ferrari isn't....

All I have made staff aware we are not ignoring this thread and comments made within in the thread,

I'd have to say from testing these last few days that the Ferrari isn't the fastest car on the list. I haven't had the pleasure of driving the Jag at the race spec yet, but I don't think its the fastest either. Some of the cars where unbalanced in season 9, for example the Mclaren. No chanc of competeting for lobby A apperances no matter who drove it I believe. I think what Magic is trying to get is your really docking the people who drove these two cars well throughout the season. Box is a feak of nature and Im sure had he drove something else he would wiped the floor with us all, but at the same time CQR VtecRoller was running similiar times to Box. Other people in the same car couldn't match these guys pace or times. Same thing with the Jag, you have a full on team giving it thier all all season and CQR are a quick group of people. Im sure like us they spend many hours tuning and practicing to get the car where they wanted it. I know we do, Chrisupra came up with about 8 versions of the Ford Tune for N8 and we put in a lot of testing hours for that race trying to find a way to keep up with the front runners. I'm sure CQR are the same way, where they refine thier tune until its perfect. With these p.i. reductions it just looks like your penalizing the drivers instead of the cars, and giving the Z4 and SLS p.i. raises dosen't really help the cause when over the space of a season the Z4 is probaly the best choice. The times Ive been running with it compared to my Ford GT, the Z4 is always quicker by 3-4 tenths even more depending on length of the track. Im not saying either its easy to balance these cars, but it was suggested that maybe get a few people from each team to help with car balancing. That way you have a lot of input from different people and won't get a biased answer and results from just one team.

Your always going to struggle balancing GT2 cars with GT3 due to Aero differences and Tyre width!

Also, i wouldn't exactly call a championship where some cars are 20-30mph faster than others "Balanced". "Hashed" is a better word id use.

FranchittiFan wrote:but there closer to the other cars so thats balancing. Its not a Ferrari vs Jag championship.

Before the superlap, overall qualifying I had the 3rd fastest time during qualifying in the BMW M3 at the first round in silverstone. The BMW was a fast car to, so if I had been able to complete the whole championship and the M3 had stayed onteh carlist would the BMW had met the same fate?

Also, with the same carlist in sp1 for the Britcar, for the whole stint Cqr Daniel and I where no more then 200-300 feet apart the whole stint. Reducing the Jags P.I. and not the ford. The way it looks, the drivers who drove these cars are being penalized.