BRAKING AND DRIVING LINE DISCUSSION

Everyone that knows me in TORA knows that I don't talk much and normally the neutral one. This usually would be one of those time but it is meant for  actual open minded opinions and suggestions. we all have seen this talked about for a little while and heard it during races with each other. If you use the option of whether to have it on or off oh well. If its your way of needing it to race then ok.I am a non believer in the assist because as we get reminded ever o often when these things are brought up we get reminded by be it Flying Mikey J, Solar, OR even I ve seen bellmond say it as well that the Slogan in TORA is that its "AS REAL AS IT GETS". With respect to most of your driving styles.... Drivers Ed never mentioned that I would have a line layed out for me to know when to turn into a curve or when to break for a stop sign. Its meant for training purposes and to get you familiar with the course and how it is meant to be driven. We are not rookies buy any means. Those who do use it...Put yourself into a REAL race at a track say sebring 6 hours. Your racing and in a zone and fatique is setting in and you have no help for braking and where to turn. That's real as it gets. We will get a little tired and have trouble when you race that long because you have to know when to stomp it when to brake when to turn over and over and over. With nothing to help guide you it makes it more of the REAL experience. We as TORA MEMBERS and supporters should want to build that slogan of "As real as it gets" as a way of racing on here. As far as I can see.... My balls dropped a long time ago and ive never been afraid of a challenge to go fully un-assisted in a race and TORA as much as they value their product should accept the challenge of offering it up and see what happens. My skills are what you see on the track. Im a driver buy trade and if you want to take tracks and events from real life racing and mirror them on forza then offer the whole package as Full simulation and give the real life drivers the respect they deserve.

Some might find this as a bad way to enter into tora as a new member but if I cant speak freely to a bunch of fellow members about things that could be more interesting for TORA then ill gladly exit stage left. So Real racers if you dare go online and take a 2 lap race around FUJIMI FULL and do it with NO ASSISTS, Don't hit any walls, and make it a clean lap... message me A time and Lobby and Ill show you what a real time is. Ask Solar or Phsyco Pheonix what that looks like.
So For Mikey J and all admins... All I ask is an event that has No assists of any kind just raw driving ability with all the guessing of how to drive involved. If you want racers you got them but what makes a real racer real in virtual racing is FULL SIM racing. AS REAL AS IT GETS...
                                                                A C0L0NEL....OUT

I Totally hear where your coming from C0L0NEL myself i can race with no assists at all, but i i am less consistent cause i cant be bothered put the time in to get used 2 braking zones and Sim Steering for the races, as everyone knows i run Braking Line Only and some people that would of spotted i dont even brake when the Red Line shows up properly. this will have 2 be done as a different Series all together, like even ask Mikey to do a "Hill Climb of Fuji" or something like that i reckon that would be a awesome series and me myself would defiantly jump into it, but then it comes back to the part of Balancing Cars and all that lot, and if Mikey or any other Staff Member see this as a chance to do that, brilliant im down for helping you guys out with it.

All I find having the line on does is reduce the amount of laps needed to get up to speed.
When you have people here who have other commitments and try to race in as many championships as possible, then anything that helps in reducing the amount of practice time you need to fit in is an invaluable tool.

Turning off the other assists like ABS/TCS/Auto gears etc. produce largely the same effect across all cars - throttle control, threshold braking and timing your shifts correctly.

Turning off the line when you could be in a GT car, TCC car and SPEC car all in the space of a week, all on different tracks and maybe even on different consoles means the amount of "seat time" needed is HUGE. When you also have to fit in whatever you do outside of TORA as well, then for some people there just aren't enough hours in the day.

If leaving it on means a series or event is more approachable and more people can race, resulting in closer racing for everyone, then I'm happy it's left on.

I started in the former best single league on forza the FACE...or Forza Sports Car Series there was no assists it ran 12two to three lobby seasons, full 50 lap races including a three and a half hour season finale at the green hell... in the Porsche cup I ran brakingline,tcs I am faster without but WAY MORE CONSISTENT
I am slower then many either way however consistency to me is more important then speed so I am in flux I race with and without.. in the lemons I had no assists and one my class.... my 2cents lol

Some people need it, some people don't.
Some people need TCS in some cars, some don't,
Some need manual, some use a clutch.

We aren't real races, there are a minority who are or have been, but majority is SIM races.
I use braking line because I drive a lot of different cars and specs and I don't want to spend 20 minutes in each car just trying to relearn the track before I actually start setting decent times.

Even when I do use the line it's only a guide. It's technically no different than using the 150m to brake and the tree on the left to turn in. It's the same thing, a visual key.

I guess if we're saying no braking line we must lock cockpit view too, and we should all buy wheels? Because real racing drivers don't use a 6" by 4" piece of plastic with buttons to control their car. And sure as hell they don't drive from the hood of their car or 6' behind it on the air...
everyone has different skill levels and that's perfectly fine.
What assists they do/don't use is also fine

FCSC...STUPID AUTO CORRECT:(

Okay, since my name has been mentioned in multiple posts, here's my opinion on the matter:

I HATE braking line, and have been a very vocal critic about its' users as well as its' legality.

I have a 1988 Ford Thunderbird that came from the factory with ABS, so I know for a fact that ABS is real, and actually widely available in the real world and has been for many years.

In racing, I have seen quite a few people DQ'd for using some sort of traction control over the years. So, I know that TCS exists and is also readily available in the real world.

But, and this is a Kardashian sized BUT, in all my years, I have yet to see one single car with either a driving line or braking line. Not even a LMP car worth billions built out of 100% Unobtanium has yet to be built with any form of brake line assist. So, driving/braking line are not real and take a bit of reality out of any game that includes those very imaginary, artificial and most of all unrealistic aids.

That being said, I hosted two series based on early IROC that banned those assists, and results were lots of line-dependent drivers slamming into everything and moaning until my ears bled. So, I have since not gone to that extreme. Instead, I just have raced on, getting beat by many who don't take the time to even learn proper brake points on their own, but I don't let it bother me or even comment on the subject unless my name has been brought into the discussion.

FM4 has been out for four years. TORA tends to use about a dozen tracks in heavy rotation. People spend endless hours tweaking a tune to gain a tenth of a second. But those same people won't be bothered to spend a few laps without the game telling them where to brake.

rant over.

It amazes me that people are against assists. Just let them race the way they want. Every series I ran have always allowed people to run whatever assists they want. Games are meant for fun, not to be hardcore.

LMR Bandit wrote:It amazes me that people are against assists.  Just let them race the way they want.  Every series I ran have always allowed people to run whatever assists they want.  Games are meant for fun, not to be hardcore.

I disagree because "As REAL as it gets" means full sim.

And knowing how much time and effort is spent on tuning, it does bother me that so many people cannot devote just a few laps on each track, and haven't in the thousands of hours that they have spent on Forza, to learn the tracks' brake points and apexes.

I also know that when those assists were forced off, I was about a full lobby up the grid than I am now, battling with the fast guys fairly regularly.

If TORA wanted to follow "As Real As It Gets" then they should of forced off all of the assists in their championships.

LMR Bandit wrote:If TORA wanted to follow "As Real As It Gets" then they should of forced off all of the assists in their championships.

I've tried suggesting to others that a full sim series be started but get the usual comments, I can't be bothered to learn the track. I'd love to see the braking line banned altogether but we all know that's not going to happen but banning it for one series? Can't see why that should be a problem. I'd join right in with that. Even if we only get 1 lobby full of drivers who are willing to do it I'd say it'll be far more fun than a 3 lobby race with assists allowed and if you win you can happily say that you won it, not the computer.

I'd suggest starting with something easy to drive, force all assists off, make is a completely stock car, no tuning allowed, that way everyone can focus on learning how to drive it and spend all their time on the track instead of tuning.

I really want to see the braking/driving lines gone from championships.

Maybe take away all assists in official TORA championships? Bit full on but I hate people running TCS and the line and beating me

We have done a full sim championship once before, Magictap hosted a porsche 911 championship but on FM3 I think. ALL assists off and we all locked into cockpit view. Huge amounts of fun as it felt 'As Real As It Gets'.

FranchittiFan wrote:Bit full on but I hate people running TCS and the line and beating me

Me too, everyone should race at the same difficuilty. I'm not saying everyone should be driving full sim but there should be at least one series running which is full sim.

FranchittiFan wrote:We have done a full sim championship once before, Magictap hosted a porsche 911 championship but on FM3 I think. ALL assists off and we all locked into cockpit view. Huge amounts of fun as it felt 'As Real As It Gets'.

Why wasn't I around then. Didn't start racing properly till FM4 but would have loved that. I don't drive cockpit view because I can't see around me properly but would if everyone else was.

FranchittiFan wrote:We have done a full sim championship once before, Magictap hosted a porsche 911 championship but on FM3 I think. ALL assists off and we all locked into cockpit view. Huge amounts of fun as it felt 'As Real As It Gets'.

There was something like that on FM4, was it that? With the Pro and Am groups? I think we should do something like that again.

I know many of us work and/or study so to increase the commitment dozenfold to series just to get back up to speed for races, considering many here will do multiple series even if they have no time, like Cowboy said, is unviable. You'll lose a lot of drivers who simply would not feel content racing. In my industry, we try to keep the punter. Banning assists especially in some cars like LMPs would be awful.

I also don't like being told by no assist heroes that they're better than me because they go full sim and I don't. I tell them "Alright then, go beat my R2 Fuji stage D."

What's more is, there's already enough argy-bargy even with the line allowed on. Without it, there's going to be more tears and it's only going to strangle and sever what we're trying to hold onto here. The line encourages consistency and I'd rather a nice consistent race than people outbraking themselves every other lap, and occasionally clipping things or people, as we're governed by Forza's damage system here on 4, and ultimately their peer to peer dog crap connections.

so what people are basically saying is that they much prefer it be the same as a pc game i.e no driving aids,only cockpit view etc.go ahead and see how many stay or go, so because of a select few who prefer their games full simulation and dont wont any driving aids.maybe do a test race to see if you really want to do races like this in the future.
rant over.

Ok guys... there is a chance that Spec Miata may need to make a return, again w/o any assists other than "Normal" steering due to the fact that "Sim" steering is too hyper to be simulation and "Normal" is actually closer to simulation.

Here's the tl;dr version of this whole argument:

Would banning assists make a more level playing field? yes.
Would banning assists make things "as real as it gets"? mostly yes.
Would banning assists encourage people to learn tracks properly? probably not.
Would banning assists bring a higher number of drivers? not so likely.

So what should an organizer do since participation on Forza 4 + 5 is rather weak? Run series with assists to encourage maximum participation.

F4H Diablo wrote:Here's the tl;dr version of this whole argument:

Would banning assists make a more level playing field? yes.
Would banning assists make things "as real as it gets"? mostly yes.
Would banning assists encourage people to learn tracks properly? probably not.
Would banning assists bring a higher number of drivers? not so likely.

So what should an organizer do since participation on Forza 4 + 5 is rather weak? Run series with assists to encourage maximum participation.

That is what I have been doing for he past two years.

Does it bother me that many drivers use the most unrealistic assist available to beat me? Yes, but only when the subject comes up.

Do I man up and race anyway? You bet.

Do I resort to using a line assist since everyone else does? No way in hell.

Normal steering is an assist (it automatically countersteers the steering back to centre when you apply opposite lock, i.e. it's assisted steering). Sim steering is full unassisted, you are in full control of winding lock on and off.

So how does banning racing line make it more realistic if you're still using assisted steering. Baffling.

I love it when this argument comes around, its like a clash of egos between the purists who wear helmet and driving shoes in their multi million pound racing cockpit's against the parascending drivers that need the instructions from their condom packets so they can follow the magic line to they know where the to put it. It always results in the same results, pride and ego's hurt and absolutely zero benefit to anyone.

The best thing to remember is, ITS A GAME!!!! Its nothing like strapping yourself into a car and racing it, and although the physics are getting a whole lot better, certainly from the view point of a forty one year old man that grew up in the age of a Sinclair Spectrum 48k and is still baffled how i can race against people in all four corners of the globe. But you dont have that adrenaline that comes from doing the real thing, the noise of the wind, the smell, the lack of vision in my case being in the UK and the weather playing its part, the fear that makes decisions in a split second and nothing can recreate that on a video game. Yes, we can get that racing buzz of a close battle, but a full racing experience, its not even close.

I will admit, im one that used the braking line on Forza 4 up to about 18 months ago, i have always prefered the cockpit view as thats been something im used to, but the sense of speed in Forza 4 was awful and i did initially struggle in finding the apex of a corner as everything was alien. Now im more accustomed to the way it works and would never think of putting the braking line on, as it would be more a distraction that anything.

So banning all assists then, absolutely not!! I couldnt give a toss what you run, if your called Motorhead and like R2's around Fujimi, well your already special enough in my eyes. The idea of the series with no assists, well i was unfortunate to be involved in the Miata thing that Mikey ran with no assists, i think the opening round was on Tsukuba and i spent the evening being completely battered so much so, i didnt bother with the rest of the series. I was a Virtual Motorsports runner and they had a Pro Championship on a Friday evening, when the numbers were huge in all series, that series contained less than half the average attendance, created more steward enquires than drivers and the numbers dwindled so badly it was scrapped after two seasons.

If you think that because your running no assists, you should gain an advantage over the rest of the field, well i would be trying harder, you will never stop the parascending drivers, they simply wouldnt bother entering a series out of their comfort level. If you are no assists, you will already know that you get alot more out of the racing, you put some effort in, you get more satisfaction out.

Bottom line, TORA is as real as it gets, but the small print will always say, appealing to all levels of driver ability and community spirit in the games console market, which is a bit more important than massaging the egos of those that need it.

Lets get 1 thing straight here, i 2nd what Wheelwash has said, but not 2 burst anyones bubble or 2 pee anyone off, but this arguement is just gonna be 50/50 no matter what you say, i Run Braking Line Only and Normal Steering sometimes Sim Steering, but does that make me no less of a driver on this GAME No if people wanna race me and beat with using no assist whatsoever fair play to the guys, i salute you but as many people know i am not the quickest guy going, so yano, this arguement has gone 2 far in my opinion.

go do testing for the circuit of ur choosing and Cars for Balancing and be done with this arguement

only reason I use the driving line is my brain cannot think at that speed and look for braking markers...plus it makes me inconsistent...Only game I have to race without a line is GRID because it doesn't have one...then again, the cars seem slower.

Its my handicap in sim racing...yes when I make the move to iRacing or PCars I probably wont use it outside of TORA Races until I learn the track well enough. But as for something Diablo said...I disagree with forcing everything off making it a so called level playing field...it will never be a level playing field...that's why I HATE TCC...RWD with No TCS, I cant drive that as fast as others like Hayden and Solar can...plus I always run my series with the rule...if im not willing to run without it, then it is unfair to force it off.

Then again, I am not a pro at this by any means...I cant tune a car worth [Censored] and still use minimal assist...though I have come a long way since getting Forza 4 around 3 years ago...I used to race Automatic, then Manual till I got used to clutch...but I still cant race with clutch as the A Button...(I hope PCARS has custom button remapping.)

all in all if people want to use it I say let them...Hell it took me forever to race almost everything in cockpit view...now I cant get out of it except on race starts and certain cars. (ie Prototypes and V8 Supercars)

I've been playing since Forza 3 first came out. Never used any assists. I find nearly all assists (with the exception of TCS or ABS for very powerful vehicles) being a negative effect for me. Most of the time it makes me incosisstant,
1.Driving/ Braking line is a distraction flat out I'd rather stare at the upcomming corner when I know I have no other cars to worry about and use the markers that tell you how far you are.
2. TCS typically impeads me on corners that I push through.
3. SC same thing.
4. Not using the clutch (On non very powerfull vehicles) eliminates my clutch braking and heel toe for corner entry.
5. Abs Honestly is the least impeading assist for me as it isn't much of a knowledge game with depth and (personally) is nearly impossible to lock up brakes.
6. Simulation steering is best for me as if your car is properly balanced & providing that you get used to or have the reflex's needed those quick jolts really help with split second decisions IE.. Going into a hair pin to hard and you might clip it on fujimi kaido, sebring, corkscrew on mazda laguna seca. It's it overly hyper yes, but it helps with training on reaction time no matter how you look at it, demand, risk & resualts are greater.
7. Normal steering just doesnt and hasn't ever felt proper.

Note:: I trained for a plethora of time on "Fujimi Kaido- Full Circiut" to figure out what helped, did not help, and how they simulate in the Forza gamming.
I'm not knocking on anyones door saying your a [CENSORED], but I do frown upon it as knowing 2 very large things (1. Knowing what helps you assist wise & 2. Learning the track's) taking the time to practice them all are pivital to improving ones self in any style of racing, to not say you don't have the time is one thing to refuse so is entirely another.