Championship Discussion

The only downside is, what happens when the slower drivers who usually turn up on the night saying "this is the first time I have tried this car at this track. I wonder how it will run?" When they get gifted a good car for a big championship, they decide to put in 20 minutes practice before the race and shave 3 seconds off their lap time. They will automatically improve a huge amount. For the guys who build and tune and test drive their arses off, can maybe shave a tenth or 2 off their best with 2 hours practice.
Whatever is decided is fine by me, but try not to reward the lazy drivers too much. It's like watching Tiger Woods practice his arse off and the PGA say to him "Sorry Tiger, you seem to be hitting it pretty good at the moment, so to balance it up, we have replaced all your clubs with junior clubs, removed your putter and would you mind if we let your opponents tee off the ladies tees?" It doesn't seem right, that's all.
It seems to me, the guys at the front are the ones who are testing and tuning for upcoming races. It shouldn't be the guys who just turn up on the evening, get in the car and drive to a victory.
I believe you should earn your victory, not be gifted one.

Me and Ian had the closest racing we have ever had between ourselves ealier on and I wasn't even in a civic. We went 8 laps of bumper to bumper close racing. Can't wait for this to start no matter what cars we are allowed to use We may even change our initial car choice as we simply can't decide from 40 cars what ones we want to use.

Again, that's not what I said.

I said we would be carefully considering how we grant car requests. I never said we would be handing good drivers bad cars and bad drivers good cars. What I said was we would be cautious on whether we grant a car that is considered strong to a team that was traditionally quick. I've explained that already by the fact that the majority of entries will be granted based on a first come, first served basis. But we will be exercising some balancing where we believe there is an unfair advantage to be had.

Yet again I point out the fact that there are tenths and hundreds between these cars from mine and the testing team's times, not seconds. There are few cars that have advantages - for instance, the Civic Type-R got slaughtered in a test race round Sunset due to its limited top speed, but it is one of the strongest cars available on twisty tracks.

We have introduced BHP and weight limits this year to prevent people significantly altering builds between tracks. So less of the power builds for the fast tracks that get changed to lighter, more agile builds for twisty tracks. As a result, this means that for the majority of situations, cars will have strengths and weaknesses.

This isn't about handicapping people, it's not about 'gifting' victories, and it certainly not about laziness, which I resent. Some of us simply don't have the time to commit to rigorous testing schedules or hotlapping tracks because we have a life outside of Forza and TORA. The better cars are not got to suddenly make those of us less 'gifted' set A lobby times. I ran a Type-R against a few makes of cars driven by some of TORAs more talented drivers and still struggled to match their pace.

Quite frankly, people are making more of this issue than necessary. The car list is close, as every car can be developed to perform, even the Volvo C30, which proved to be one of the slower cars on my testing schedule.

The point I have been trying to make since the very beginning is consider your options before just plumping for a 'strong' car, because there will be scant few of them and you will likely be rejected. If you are a good driver or tuner, or have a good tuner on your team, then every car on the list is a race winner.

If people are worried about unfair this or unfair that, we'll just scrap the list, make it a one-make series, and everyone can run in Fiat 500s.

I actually found some cars that were traditionally strong in TCC from past seasons to be, imo, terrible under these new regs. I know the likes of PLOW will take another obscure car, and I have a good idea what it could be, and they will make it a strong and competitive car when no one else could. I understand what Scott is saying about leveling the playing field but we found only a scarce few cars that were actually that good compared to the rest.

I am happy either way. You should know me by now, I am willing to race anything and I am always helping people with tunes to help balance the cars and give people a chance. Also you keep mentioning the Civic as the strongest car. I agree, it is strong, but certainly not the strongest. I already have a few other cars that can beat it, which I am giving to some other teams, so please don't see me as moaning. I am looking forward to this championship very much and when the cars and teams are finalised, I will be tuning for several other teams to help give them a competitive car to enjoy this championship.
Whatever car we end up with is what we will be racing. You have seen our requested car entry, so if you have had any similar requests, would you like us to change now, so there is not any conflict later on. I have other cars in mind, so PM me if you want to discuss. I am open to suggestions.

The PI system in Forza 3 has been changed from Forza 2. In 2 the PI was based on how the AI performed in the car, in 3 it is now based on the car's stats. That means that in Forza 2, turbos were the daddies, whereas that has been redressed in 3 so that NA cars are stronger.

The Hondas benefit from this greatly compared to their performance in Forza 2, as the NA engine obviously means there is instant power delivery. But that hasn't made them so much stronger that they wipe the floor with the other cars on the list, it may be a tenth here or there on some tracks.

We used two tracks significantly in testing, and they were selected based on their absence from the calendar. That was Iberian and Ladera Full tracks. The Civics were decent here because their better handling and NA engines meant they performed slightly better. But when they were run on faster tracks, like Sunset as I mentioned above, they got killed.

I've gone quicker in a turbo-equipped Civic Si round Silverstone National than I have in the Civic Type R, and that's a car that sits way down my garage list that has only recently seen me start developing the car.

Swings and roundabouts.

Again, if a car appears to be significantly head and shoulders above the rest due to an unfair imbalance (and NOT simply because the team running it were working miracles with it), we will deal with that.

Chillz you are like the PLOW guys, you can turn any car into a competitive machine. Yeah, the civic is strong but I can still beat it in a few cars. I love racing a few cars on the list and I wouldn't mind what we get. The racing is so close no matter the car, there is justa few that once they get some clean air I can set really good laptimes that I can't set in others.

Oh and Scot, who says we tested our Hondas as NA cars at all

I'm backing Chillz on this, just hola and we will do whats required ;O)

WWR Chillz wrote:I am happy either way. You should know me by now, I am willing to race anything and I am always helping people with tunes to help balance the cars and give people a chance.

Undoubtedly, you are not only one of our best drivers and tuners here at TORA, but you are more than willing to help out others. That is never in doubt.

Also you keep mentioning the Civic as the strongest car. I agree, it is strong, but certainly not the strongest. I already have a few other cars that can beat it, which I am giving to some other teams, so please don't see me as moaning. I am looking forward to this championship very much and when the cars and teams are finalised, I will be tuning for several other teams to help give them a competitive car to enjoy this championship.

The reason I mentioned the Civic is because that's not only one of the quickest cars from my own and others testing, and from feedback I have had from others. I never said it was the strongest car, I said it was strong. As I pointed out earlier, I beat my own fastest time in the Civic with the first run I did in the Mazda 3, so I know it can be beaten.

Whatever car we end up with is what we will be racing. You have seen our requested car entry, so if you have had any similar requests, would you like us to change now, so there is not any conflict later on. I have other cars in mind, so PM me if you want to discuss. I am open to suggestions.

I have not seen any entries and have very little idea as to what most people want to run. I only know what make my team will be running, but not the model. I have a rough idea what a few others will be racing from testing, but I have no idea what has been submitted from the entry forms.

Richy59 wrote:Oh and Scot, who says we tested our Hondas as NA cars at all

The Civic Si I built and ran in testing to the original PI was fitted with an aftermarket turbo, and it was only a few hundredths off the pace of the Type R. I just mean that the NA cars that suffered in Forza 2 are better now in Forza 3.

Based on your previous post Scot who will get to decide who runs what? Will you see the list?

The TORA staff.

If the cars are truly as balanced as you say, then who cares what the top drivers are driving. It seems you are emphasizing fairness in car selection when the fairness is actually in the cars. It is very clear that there will be a good variety of car on the track. You just keep using the same wording. Make the cars even, and you won't have to worry about anyone getting the faster car. Lol.

The cars are evenly matched.

I'm seeing over 2 seconds difference personally between some cars!! Yup, thats PER LAP!! Even I think not.

Anyone else seeing this sort of gap of larger?

Look, it's this simple.

If you have something to feedback, I have explained umpteen times, PM me.

The testing conducted by the test group found the times and cars to be closely matched. If there is an imbalance, we'll look at those situations on an individual basis.

I refuse to go round and round in circles over this. You know the rules and regs, you know the cars available, I would suggest anyone with an issue either PM me what you have, or suck it up and give it a rest.

Sorry Scot, it's a valid point (my statement) in my opinion and stated out loud in the "discussion" area for this championship asking for others opinions on the same topic. Nothing personal or an attack. You have stated on many occassions, well and clearly your thoughts and position so far. On this occassion (specifically how closely matched the cars are) I disagree and asked if anyone else does. No biggy. Should anyone else have some thouhts on this too I would like to hear it also, instead of everyone PM'ing you on this.

Thanks again Scot for keeping it all explained in detail. I really am not looking for a fight here ;O) Just an open discussion with others who have started testing outside of the TORA testers selected.

Matt

I'm not saying you are not entitled to discuss it. The whole point I have responded and discussed it, and not ignored it, is that is what this thread is for. I am not taking it as an attack, I never have. What I am getting fed up of is saying the same thing over and over.

So far the only person I have heard anything from is yourself, which has not included any evidence of where these imbalances are. And the reason we want it PMed and not on here is because there are many people still undecided as to what they want to race. We want people to make up their own minds based on their own testing and what they are comfortable with. Also, we have set up official channels for this type of thing, so use them.

Once the entry list is officially released, I am more than happy to discuss this openly. Until then I await valid evidence and we will only consider PMed information.

Fact of the matter is guys no matter how even the list is, as soon as the tuners get hold of them and get them perfect for the tracks then obviously there will be some teams out in front. That's motorsport I'm afraid

Iv'e only run a few laps and i could tell you straight away that these cars are not within a second of each other. I havn't tried many cars but tbh if you want a closer field then i suggest taking Magictaps feedback onboard.

Im pretty consistent and can jump straight into any car and run at a good pace but when i run 10 laps in one car and then beat it by over a second in another...on my first hot lap, alarm bells start ringing.

Anyway its not my decision to make but i think a few cars should be dropped.

We had the same sort of discussion with the GT3's before that started. Look how good that's been

VVV Slim wrote:...then i suggest taking Magictaps feedback onboard.

Feedback would consist of car make, model, build, bhp, weight, track, lap times, etc.

Saying some cars are quicker than others is not feedback.

If anyone has anything to report back, PM me so I can evaluate it.

Magictap has come up with a way of collating information, but it requires a bit of honesty from those entering the information. You can use this to feedback information regarding the TCC.

Here is a Beta version instead of the Alpha version.

Please get in touch if you use it and find something missing / wrong / requires editing and I will do it as soon as I can. Put in details so I can fix if needs be, i.e. if a tire (tyre) size is missing, tell me which tire size you selected instead and what's missing, plus the track, car and time then the record in the spreadsheet can be amended to show the correct tire size. The form will also be amended so the missing data is added for next time.

Here is the data entry form:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dExoZll1dE91eVZ6d1RyUlY2ZllGOEE6MQ&theme=0AX42CRMsmRFbUy1mYWM4NjFhMS1kMGY2LTRjODMtOGNjNi02YjVjYmI0NGNiMDQ&ifq

This I hope will help to make the closest racing seen in TORA and still leaves the tuning out of the mix so it's still a factor moving forward that can make a difference.

If you guys at TORA would prefer a version where only the data entry form is visible to the communit,y with the data collection spreadsheet just for TORA staff I'd be happy to walk/talk someone through the creation in Google Docs.

Matt