TORA MSA GT World Championship 2013 - General Discussion

Standaman94 wrote:What he said. Everyone just pick a damn car, and if after a few races it's too slow, then complain and f*ck off.

No need for that kind of talk you know.

.......annnnddd GOOD MORNING!!!

LOL I read that as sarcasm Stan hahaha

CMGraphix wrote:That is on purpose, and it is to favour more cars currently racing in higher numbers as real world. That is based off big plans we are currently on, but no I will admit the favouritism there.

Hmmm I can understand that. It does seem strange though. Ah well. I would have liked to see equal amounts, like we have in S9, where all of the cars got snapped up.

Forum permissions have been fixed, so they should act like all other areas of the forum.

I don't quite know what to say as I can't see there being an easy solution for this now. It's becoming a bit of an "us against them" situation and no matter what decision is made there is going to be backlash against it. Obviously with there being so many people commenting on the car balance there is definitely some weight behind the issue. I personally don't believe in the MSA argument, as I would much rather have an evenly balanced car list in a video game than try to mirror real life, which can cause issues. I understand the desire to replicate real life here, and we try to do what we can to achieve this, but it's a video game and we can only work with what we have.

As Simon has said he put in an unprecedented amount of effort over the last year to make the Race Cars balanced as well as possible, and throughout Season 9 nobody complained like this. People seemed to enjoy it, and everyone had some great racing. Comments that was saw included "how great the cars are" "how good the racing is" and "how good a job was done on the car list" To all of a sudden see such a big uproar about 1-2 PI being adjusted on the cars that were commented on throughout Season 9 and the data fed back to Simon is strange to say the least.

Maybe we have attracted more people who take the racing a lot more seriously than who we are used to seeing, and whilst I don't like the idea of people being put off of racing here because of a couple of questionable tenths in some cars, there are a lot of other people who haven't mentioned a thing about the cars - people who put in just as much effort as the 'big' teams.

Ultimately we need to make a decision as series organisers, and whilst it may be a decision that some people don't like we will still have people who will race here. For this argument to all of a sudden come up with days/hours to go before signs up open after the list has been released for awhile is again something I don't understand, and as I said I have seen this a lot before. In the past we haven't made drastic changes to a list that was complained about, and in the end people still raced here and had fun. This game will never have an equally balanced car list unless we all race in the same car, and until we all find a game that has a set list of GT cars that are accurate and balanced against each other we can only work with what we have. Last Season people enjoyed being here, now all of a sudden they aren't happy.

Simon is our GT organiser, someone who we put in charge of our GT series as we trust his judgement. This judgemet lead us to the fantastic Season 9. I will back up his decisions, but I will never be against feedback and testing data that proves we are taking the wrong step and that suggests a fix to bring it back on track. I just hope that everyone does stick around and does race in the series, so that we do indeed get a picture and the proof to back up how unbalanced the car list is believed to be. I understand though that this kind of series takes time and effort to prepare for, and that time may be better suited to a championship elsewhere that you feel provides a fairer race. That is your decision and as much as I don't want it there may be no convincing some people who may have already made up their minds after private testing and not in a race situation.

Hey guys,

I'm new to TORA and have a few questions that i was hoping someone may be able to answer. Firstly is it ok to enter the GT Sprint series as a privateer 1 man team and if so do i need to declare that on my registration form. Second, is there a spec build for the cars or do you make your own build as long as its within the rules.

Thanks Snip.

Hey Snip yeah you can enter as a privateer, just make sure you put it on the entry form

For your build you have to build it yourself, check out the car list and the restrictions for your car.

After that you should be good to go

(PS entry is tonight at 8PM BST)

Ok, thanks mate

Standaman94 wrote:What he said. Everyone just pick a damn car, and if after a few races it's too slow, then complain and f*ck off.

This was my 1000th post.

So for those in the know I have a question for entry forms.

Are we to specify only 1 car choice and then await a decision as to wether we choose again of its taken?
Just trying to work out what I may end up with if I chose a popular car that gets taken. Right now I assume I get whats left after all the other choices have been worked out.
Souns silly and I may be missing something but I may just opt for my second choice car if its more likely as getting whats left may be a car I really dont manage with. Simply trying to ensure I can go the distance with this question

its a first come first serve basis , when you register i believe you put 1st car choice and 2nd car choice

Best thing to do is to submit a 1st and second choice car in your post when Sign Ups open.
That's the best way of getting a car you like. We would hope to inform all entrants which car they have got as soon as possible but as it;s a first come first served bases then if you get you car choice ahead of anyone else then you're likely to get that one
Hope that helps

That does Matt,

If the entry form allows us to make say 2/3 car choices then it would likely be easier if it does get busy for the organisers to have a nice chronilogical order of peoples extra choices without having to do much asking for another pick.

I could list all my choices in order if needed but wouldnt want to be unfair.

Keep the faith guys I know there is a hell of a lot of issue popping up last minute but its what happens and you just have to take the best from suggestions and like you say, Dont go too far with changes if they are un supported by evidence.
I believe the cars will never be equal overall and that some drivers and cars will work better at different tracks BUT also that some will just be fast everywhere in their chosen car.

Im really looking forward to this championship, Both sprint and enduro are going to be great in their own way

We'll be going by the time posted to decide who gets what. I think father time is the fairest method of all

(first-time poster here, visitor from another racing series)

Just out of curiosity regarding this car balancing debate; is it possible for us to look at the testing/balancing data?

I don't think the cars are terribly unbalanced but when I competed in a league using the S9 rules there was 1 car (ours, the Lamborghini) dominating the series. That could be down to getting the right build/tune and putting in more practice than the others, or it could be a car balancing thing, I don't know. (for reference, the Lambo won the championships and got Pole at every race, Corvette 2nd, Z4 3rd)

If I saw the testing numbers and saw that the difference between fastest and slowest was around 1% (which is 1.5 seconds on most tracks) then that would put my mind at ease regarding how balanced these cars really are. I'm sure others feel the same way too.

If season 9 was so close why did many teams switch cars as soon as one of 4 popped up? I done it myself and there is reason behind why everyone changed car. To me there is real GT3 in game that got put straight to a 15% power purely because it had a decent PI level. But to many of them lost any chance of competing the second a straight came up. Give it two laps your no where near a slipstream you lose 15mph easy even on the slower shorter straights causing laptimes to be at least .5 tenths off. Around any track with the penalty these cars lose time out of lack of acceleration because the power to weight ratio has been killed. Some cars lost only 30hp others lost 90hp+ this is what caused the unbalancing of the cars as you lose to much power to pull the damn car along.

Hopefully that reads correctly to all who might find it useful but I think with so many people clearly unhappy why not delay signups for a week? Gives everyone chance to provide data and help sort any issues rather than it carrying on every round through the series.

FYI This may be a T10 balls up or its actually how it is in real life BUT

The Lambo and possibly the Jag is a GT2 BODIED car but with a GT3 Engine. That may be why those 2 seriously lack in a straight line!

I understand what you're saying Chris and noticed it too. I don't know what the solution is because you test the cars in qualifying conditions (i.e. hotlapping) and when you compare the times they look balanced, but in race conditions, you get that rubber banding effect that you'd expect in and out of corners, but when there's a car there, you can't exploit the corner speed in the cars whose strength lies in the handling, and the straight line cars pull out and ever increasing gap on the straights that eventually breaks the tow to the handling car behind, and then they're gone.

Then on a twisty track, all the guys in straight-line cars complain that their cars handle like arse.

The trouble is......how do you fix that within the limitations of the game? And how do you please everybody? Other than having a single-make series, which kind of defeats the object!

CQR Aero wrote:...in race conditions, you get that rubber banding effect that you'd expect in and out of corners, but when there's a car there, you can't exploit the corner speed in the cars whose strength lies in the handling, and the straight line cars pull out and ever increasing gap on the straights that eventually breaks the tow to the handling car behind, and then they're gone.

This is very true, but a couple of times (especially at Laguna Seca) that Viper kicks ass being as it had so much grip.

ok all,

Personally I would like to apologise for some of the rash comments made by staff in relation to our community in this post, I for one work in a business where MFA (Market Feed Back Analysis) is key to the success of your product and well some of the comments made are not to be taken as TORA word.

We need constructive criticism and ways to go forward and thats not just from the community but from staff too.

I hope you all understand, cheers all.

Wow, I've just read several pages, mainly filled with this balancing debate. I understand some of the complaints, but what I don't get: why is the S10 car list considered as total crap while it has only slight changes compared to S9? We had close racing in S9 and a lot of fun, didn't we? So the car list can't be that wrong IMO. I really appreciate the work of the TORA staff and I don't expect a perfect car balance, because that is not possible, neither in real nor virtual racing.

And a note to the really fast guys out there: if you identified that one or the other car is better than the rest, then nobody forces you to use it. Pick one of underdog cars, bringt it into A lobby and fight for the win with it. If it's not winning but about racing, then this is your challenge.

tsaFooT wrote:Wow, I've just read several pages, mainly filled with this balancing debate. I understand some of the complaints, but what I don't get: why is the S10 car list considered as total crap while it has only slight changes compared to S9? We had close racing in S9 and a lot of fun, didn't we? So the car list can't be that wrong IMO. I really appreciate the work of the TORA staff and I don't expect a perfect car balance, because that is not possible, neither in real nor virtual racing.

And a note to the really fast guys out there: if you identified that one or the other car is better than the rest, then nobody forces you to use it. Pick one of underdog cars, bringt it into A lobby and fight for the win with it. If it's not winning but about racing, then this is your challenge.

These are the sort of posts that deserve rep

It was a long read, and in the end my german friend is right

@Aero - I understand what you mean with the rubber band effect but this is to extreme as even on grip tracks the faster low grip cars still have massive amounts of grip as they are full bread race cars. I think giving cars that lack straight line would be better in a lower penalty group.

Thank you to the guys here who see sense (I'm looking at the last few posters in particular)

I have requested detailed info on what people are using to come to the conclusions they are but to no avail. If we had hard data then we can make a decision. But without this, we have to use the season and a half's worth of data with all race condition lappery, qualifying times and test data to work on.

Enjoy season 10, it;s going to be the best yet!!!

Additionally, I have also suggested open test sessions.
Anyone interested?!?!?!