Re: Sebring 12 Hours Race Day Thread

by **Ax4x Bandit** Sun 10 Mar 2013 - 22:07

I think lag outs are classified as an electrical or mechanical failure on the car.

by **Ax4x Mikey J** Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 1:12

Lag out in Forza = sudden catastrophic parts failure in LMES

Both are unfortunate, but they happen.

As for running order grid, putting some GTE cars ahead of LMPs, that happens in real life too after a safety car period that includes pit stops. In TEC races, that is what happens when LMP cars have issues in earlier stints... they are behind GTE cars in overall standings. I would imagine that the fast teams really shouldn't have that hard a time passing lower class cars.

by **Diablo 29x** Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 17:05

You can't put LMP's behind GT's in the starting grid. It's stupid, I'm sorry, but it is. The LMP's can get by, but they will be way too far behind the lead pack to make a difference in the race, and then what's the point? Hot lap for 2 hours? I did the VM ALMS race yesterday, I was in LMP. You lost 1-2 seconds a lap if you got caught behind a GT car, more if there was a group. I lost 7 seconds on one lap at Road Atlanta because I had to wait behind 3 GT cars through the last couple of turns.

That, and it's a safety hazard. The closing speed on an LMP compared to a GT is ridiculous. You have a much better chance of ruining a couple team's event by putting LMP's behind GT's.

Lagouts- There does need to be a safety net. Forza servers suck and many teams races are ruined due to lagouts. I'm not sure why people keep coming back to do this, knowing they have a pretty good shot of spending a month or more of tuning, painting, organizing, practicing... all of it to be ruined by a lagout. It happens IRL too, but not nearly as often as on Forza.

by **Ax4x Mikey J** Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 17:23

^ In the Britcar 24, my team completely lost 4 stints to lag outs, one per driver, plus a couple more later in the stint. It happens. But I am glad that we seemed to have gotten that out of our system as neither my team nor my britcar team mate's Sebring car had a single missed stint this time around.

by **Ax4x Cowboy** Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 17:41

Just going to repeat this from earlier as feedback for future races:

The biggest gap between calculated feet and mile marker should be added to every player in the lobby. You'll have a much more accurate result after 6 stints rather than being up to 6 miles out.

In the spreadsheet you'd have: [mile marker] - [calculated distance in miles]. Then look for the largest positive amount that will not put anyone over their mile marker distance and add it to every players distance.

It would need to be done independently for each lobby but as there are only 4 lobbys it isn't that hard to do tbh.

I know from my stint results that in Stint 1 I ended up at Turn 17 and Stint 4 I was at Turn 16. That's the length of the entire back straight and yet from the live timing I did 648ft more in Stint 4 than Stint 1.

This event's distances are more accurate than they have been previously but there is still a way we can improve them to be even more accurate. When you have positions being decided by fractions of a mile then it's only logical that the distances for each stint are as accurate as possible.

by F4H Hakkinen Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 17:51

Unfortunately we don't have your luck. Our GT's had this at Le Mans last year, everyone knows we were miles ahead at the N8 and then Hamilton lagged out in the final stint which handed the win to another team and again this weekend we had 3 teams hit with lag outs.

We can't just say, 'it happens'. There is an opportunity here to do something to protect everyone and keep everyone happy, keep everyone involved. Maybe we take the best 5 out of 6 stints so teams are allowed to drop one stint kinda like series at VM? (this is an example, don't shoot me down!). Or a team get awarded a percentage of their teams worst or best stint. Whether that percentage is 95% or whatever I don't know. I mean even if a team only needs 95% to win then they probably deserve to win. Like if you do 218 miles in a stint, 95% of that is 207.1 miles. That still puts you 10 miles or so behind the leaders for example and on Sebring you're 2.5 laps down but you're more in the hunt than if you only collected 39 miles. If you crash, you crash and nothing can be done about it. I'm purely talking about lag outs.

If a team has 2 lagouts then they're 20 miles down. I mean it is still a lot and there would be a lot of work to be done on track to make up that time but at least people are still in contention and not rooted to the foot of the standings because of something which is out of their control (I know this is disputed as some people have crappy connections). We've addressed this issue within our club. After Nurburgring we said we need to do everything we can on our end to put this to bed but it is still hanging around us. It's very discouraging and I am not here to argue, I am here to ask you guys to help us figure this out and try and come up with something simple that protects everyone on track so everybody has a reason to fight on track and race.

I hope some people reading this can see what I am getting at and appreciate what I am saying. All the time and effort we put into practising, painting, tuning and preparation, time off of work to do this is all turning into a waste of time and I am running out of things to say to my team to keep them motivated and coming back here because I am in your corner TORA and you know we have extended our help to you before.

I hope something comes of this eventually. Thanks

by Guest Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 17:58

I dont see how you can give a team 95% if they lag out, to me thats tough. If a driver has a bad stint and decides screw this and just pushes the power button how do patrol that? They can just say lagged out and xbox froze yet they still get more miles than what they were on target for.

Lagouts happen that cant be helped but flipping in front of GTE cars in a major battle can lol.

by TLR Scrublord Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 18:04

@Chrisupra It really does suck to see you guys at f4h really being hit real hard by this, it's such a shame to see a team of your quality which had the potential to take everything on saturday end up the way it did. I hope to see you guys back for Le Mans fighting harder than ever!

by F4H Hakkinen Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 18:04

It's an example Chris. Let's change that number maybe? I don't know how they could get their target miles if they only a percentage? Maybe this rule only applies for the first few stints? I don't know all the answers. Lets avoid questioning me really, once again, I am asking people to help

by F4H Hakkinen Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 18:08

CQR CHRiS wrote:Lagouts happen that cant be helped but flipping in front of GTE cars in a major battle can lol.

Haha ya bollix, I don't use TCS and I was overtaking Koenigsegg and Daniel (I think it was him) on the outside on 'said' turn and the back end kicked out slightly because Ihad 71% rear damage from when IRT Gillard draft braked into me and that was that. On that corner the wall is on the tracks edge and there was nothing I could do. I actually gunned the throttle when I knew i'd lost it to hopefully do a full spin and offer the guys a chance to get past me but it was all over in a second.

by XPR Roadrunner Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 18:11

CQR CHRiS wrote:I dont see how you can give a team 95% if they lag out, to me thats tough. If a driver has a bad stint and decides screw this and just pushes the power button how do patrol that? They can just say lagged out and xbox froze yet they still get more miles than what they were on target for.

Lagouts happen that cant be helped but flipping in front of GTE cars in a major battle can lol.

by Guest Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 18:22

F4H Chrisupra wrote:It's an example Chris. Let's change that number maybe? I don't know how they could get their target miles if they only a percentage? Maybe this rule only applies for the first few stints? I don't know all the answers. Lets avoid questioning me really, once again, I am asking people to help

I understand its just a example but say something happens and you smash your car up. You know that your well short of distance even for 'said %' you could just quit and it could become really hard to manage for staff mid race in determaining what was accidental or not.

by F4H Drake Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 19:33

Would it be possible to do an have everyone do an extra stint? Then, for instance the 12 Hours, take the best 6 of 7 stints.

by XPR Roadrunner Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 19:37

really? are we talking about this? Lagouts happen just as often as a mechanical failure in real life. [Censored] happens and thats it.

none of this best of 6-7 stints or 75% rule nonsense. DEAL WITH IT. We have all had it happen to us at one point or another and thats what makes it interesting to the rest of us.

by **Diablo 29x** Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 19:47

How about this (just an idea). I know there are holes in this plan, so just take the idea for what it's worth. The numbers could obviously be adjusted, I'm just using whole, round numbers for easy calculations.

Formula-
Say a racer lags out. Take their qualifying time, add 2.5 seconds to it, calculate their "stint distance", and remove 1000 feet for every 15 minutes left in their stint.

Example-
Racer A lagged out at Sebring with 60 minutes to go. Their qualifying lap was a 2:03.000. Using 2:05.500 as their average lap, you calculate that their stint distance was 980,692 feet. You then subtract 4000 feet out of that to enforce the time penalty, leaving you with a total stint distance of 976,692 feet. This team is probably about a mile or two behind where they could've been. They're not out of it entirely, making the race much more exciting towards the end.

I will just throw this out there before anyone says it: If a system like this is implemented, I volunteer myself to be one of those doing calculations. Have a group of 4-5 people doing this, and you'll be able to do this on the fly.

by CredibleWizard Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 19:49

Drake Hellspawn wrote:Would it be possible to do an have everyone do an extra stint? Then, for instance the 12 Hours, take the best 6 of 7 stints.

I think that don't sound half bad actually Drake... Like a dropped round in a series.. Nice one.

by **Diablo 29x** Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 19:58

XPR Roadrunner wrote:really? are we talking about this? Lagouts happen just as often as a mechanical failure in real life. [Censored] happens and thats it.

none of this best of 6-7 stints or 75% rule nonsense. DEAL WITH IT. We have all had it happen to us at one point or another and thats what makes it interesting to the rest of us.

And yes, we are talking about this. Too many teams have been [Censored] over by lagouts. It becomes an absolute waste of time to prepare for these races when you're just going to lag out. Last year, I lagged out 20 minutes into my stint at Le Mans. I was stint 2, and our team's chances were completely shattered. I spent about a month, testing, tuning, painting, organizing for stints, etc., and it all was a waste.

This is a discussion to improve things for future races. We're making suggestions and constructive. Do you own this website? Are you an admin here at TORA? Nope, I didn't think you were. Then, why are you telling us to "deal with it"? It's not your place to be doing so, and neither is it anyone's really. The suggestions made have been constructive in nature and we all are just trying to improve our experience in virtual racing. It's people like you, barking at people that challenge the status quo, that ruin it for me here. Your opinion is no greater than mine, or anyone else's.

by Guest Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 20:03

Drake Hellspawn wrote:Would it be possible to do an have everyone do an extra stint? Then, for instance the 12 Hours, take the best 6 of 7 stints.

What happens if you lag out of this stint? And it would also make the whole 12 hours or 24 rather pointless it would end up being 13hrs 45.

If a team starts running 2.03.00 but then crashes now runing 2.07's with all the damage how is that taken into account if they lag out. There is no way of tracking what times people are running as a qually lap could of been done by a driver 2 seconds quicker than a driver who lagged out.

Again only my thoughts on it, ive had it happen but i think it could be taken advantage of in certain cases.

by Guest Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 20:08

Also another point, if a driver from lobby A lags out there calculation works out at 200miles. What if a team who finish's every stint with no contact but in lobby D only covers 198 per stint as they are not quiet on the pace. Is it fair that they can not peogress even though they completed more physical laps?

by **Diablo 29x** Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 20:14

CQR CHRiS wrote:
Drake Hellspawn wrote:Would it be possible to do an have everyone do an extra stint? Then, for instance the 12 Hours, take the best 6 of 7 stints.

What happens if you lag out of this stint? And it would also make the whole 12 hours or 24 rather pointless it would end up being 13hrs 45.

If a team starts running 2.03.00 but then crashes now runing 2.07's with all the damage how is that taken into account if they lag out. There is no way of tracking what times people are running as a qually lap could of been done by a driver 2 seconds quicker than a driver who lagged out.

Again only my thoughts on it, ive had it happen but i think it could be taken advantage of in certain cases.

I agree, something like this formula would be really hard to implement, but that's why I'm just throwing the idea out, so that other people can tweak it and mold into something feasible. I'd just like to see something done, that's all.

Drake, good idea, I think it would be best suited for 5/6 rather than doing an extra stint. If you lag out of two stints, then you're screwed, but allowing one mistake out could make things much closer at the end.

Also, I never posted on this earlier, but massive congrats to Team Jeremy Kyle and XPLR-XBR on their victories! Well done, guys!

by F4H Hakkinen Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 20:15

Thanks for the responses. I like the idea of an additional stint. For example we do 13 and the best 12 are accounted for.

Good point Chris. I wonder how we could make it work? Maybe the lagged out team get 95% of the lowest teams stints? That way the mileage given for a lagout will never be more than any team who completed all physical laps? Does that sounds better?

Roadrunner, man come on. That's not far to just ignore this and give it the whole '[Censored] happens' attitude. You're a good member of this community too and support is needed rather than a passive attempt at being unconstructive to the topic. I was just disappointed reading what you posted. When this happens to you a lot it is not something you can just ignore and pass off as 'oh well, tough luck on us'. It starts becoming a real concern for the affected people.

by **Ax4x Mikey J** Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 20:18

F4H Diablo wrote:How about this (just an idea). I know there are holes in this plan, so just take the idea for what it's worth. The numbers could obviously be adjusted, I'm just using whole, round numbers for easy calculations.

Formula-
Say a racer lags out. Take their qualifying time, add 2.5 seconds to it, calculate their "stint distance", and remove 1000 feet for every 15 minutes left in their stint.

Example-
Racer A lagged out at Sebring with 60 minutes to go. Their qualifying lap was a 2:03.000. Using 2:05.500 as their average lap, you calculate that their stint distance was 980,692 feet. You then subtract 4000 feet out of that to enforce the time penalty, leaving you with a total stint distance of 976,692 feet. This team is probably about a mile or two behind where they could've been. They're not out of it entirely, making the race much more exciting towards the end.

I will just throw this out there before anyone says it: If a system like this is implemented, I volunteer myself to be one of those doing calculations. Have a group of 4-5 people doing this, and you'll be able to do this on the fly.

It is a lot of work to do the current system. And even in its current form, mistakes happen in distance reporting. Your proposal could open things up for many mistakes to be made, and add countless hours of check and recheck before results would be posted.

If I considered lagouts a true life or death issue, I'd spend whatever it takes to insure I have the most reliable internet connection possible, for every member of my team. But in all reality, this is a great affordable hobby. Cheers

by F4H Drake Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 20:22

XPR Roadrunner wrote:really? are we talking about this? Lagouts happen just as often as a mechanical failure in real life. [Censored] happens and thats it.

none of this best of 6-7 stints or 75% rule nonsense. DEAL WITH IT. We have all had it happen to us at one point or another and thats what makes it interesting to the rest of us.

Interesting? How so? Interesting because you gained an advantage from something that no one had any control over? Personally, I would rather lose to a team that never lagged out then win against a better team that was affected by a lag out.

Sure the end of N8 was amazing, but in the back of my mind will always stick that the F4H Audi had done their homework, and put in the time to be the dominant car/team and they deserved to win. Though maybe Hamilton might have made a mistake if he hadn't lagged out, but it's doubtful.

Sure enough mechanical failures in real racing may at times be unavoidable, but this era of endurance racing has come a long way in terms of reliability. Most of the time a car spends time in the pits it is from contact, and I think most would agree that there are plenty of hazards on track; whether it be aggressive or inexperienced drivers, walls, controller/wheel failure, or just general mistakes.

Also note, there is no reason for such hostility when we this conversation was both constructive and hypothetical.

by F4H Hakkinen Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 20:24

Correct Flying Mikey but people like Diablo don't have good connections at his home. We have to rely on him being at university to have a good connection. We've all addressed the issue but it keeps happening. Believe me, many of us were going to pack this in after Nurburgring and just stick to series racing. I'm speaking on here on behalf of my team.

by **Ax4x Bandit** Mon 11 Mar 2013 - 20:25

Everybody just quite down with all of this best 5 out of 6 stints or random percentage crap. As Roadrunner said, just deal with it and move on. There are still going to be more races in the future for you to win. Doing a system to help people with lag outs is just as impossible as stapling water to a tree (and don't mention different forms of water, either). Anything can happen in a two hour stint.

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