MSA TORA TCC Season 8 - General Discussion

TG Wormburner wrote:An F1 team can't find a Vettel, let alone Vettel, Hamilton, and Alonso on the street to fill in for a race over the course of a season which is effectively what CQR has done.

Sorry, I really don't understand what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting that reserve/substitute drivers should be limited to slow ones?

There's really nothing nefarious about it. Someone says "I can't make Round X, does anyone want to fill in for me?" and then someone says "I will".

Worm your entire argument is based on an complete misunderstanding of how driver substitution points are awarded at TORA. If you don't race, you don't score - your sub doesn't score points FOR you in your absence. All they can do is help your TEAM, which is what CQR's substitutions have done.

Team Gizmo could easily have asked, for example, Koenigsegg and TPR Box to substitute in the Volvo, combined with Haydo that is a formidable 3 driver team, but it's not for me to manage your driver and team operations. All of CQR's driver substitutions have compiled with a) TCC rules and b) TORA Sporting Regulations. Haydo vacating a team he has raced for in 12 races to substitute in another team (by his own admission to get a faster car) does not IMO.

Berty round 1 and 2 ran the Megane as a privateer.

Round 3 he subs in a SEAT. Same race another sub comes into the same squad (Daniel).


You weren't griping here.

So guys how was your day?  

MATT PASTRAMNI wrote:So guys how was your day?  

Awful because of fm.net.

I'm also not upset at CQR, just pointing some things out. Get along with those guys as much as anyone.

Worm, who died and made you admin?

what you are saying is completely out of context about CQR, what they have done is in the rules, none of the drivers were SIGNED UP for the series when they subbed to help out the team when drivers were away

what Haydo is planning on doing is the complete opposite, he is changing teams to a stronger car for an event to gain points for himself and that team so he can stay in contention to win the DC, which is exploiting a loophole in the rules which is pretty low, and i have a lot of respect for Haydo, i try to mirror myself off of him, so i'm not targeting him as an enemy, but it's just the wrong way to go after a hotly sought after championship title

CRA Erebus wrote:Worm, who died and made you admin?

Who made you the extraordinary being that you are that says people can't have and share an opinion/concern?

I said what Hayden is doing isn't anymore correct than what CQR did (they've also done the same thing already). Maybe you should have read a few posts above where Berty did the same exact thing to no protest.

TG Wormburner wrote:

CRA Erebus wrote:Worm, who died and made you admin?

Who made you the extraordinary being that you are that says people can't have and share an opinion/concern?

Correct me if im wrong, but im sure erebus is expressing opinion and concern right there (what you quoted)

i did read it thank you very much
and i'm not saying no one can have an opinion
i'm just saying people should justify themselves more and make understand the rules of a series more before joining

CRA Erebus wrote:i did read it thank you very much
and i'm not saying no one can have an opinion
i'm just saying people should justify themselves more and make understand the rules of a series more before joining

Which means that what is being done is even more right. It's in the rules that this is actually okay!

not exactly

CQR MAGiC wrote:Because all those driver substitutions were made to replace a driver who was unable to attend that round (work, other commitments etc), which is the intention of the driver substitution rule.

Haydo has already admitted that he is using this rule to move from the team he signed up for to a more competitive car to give himself a competitive advantage, not to replace a driver who is unable to attend. That is not the same thing at all and breaches the TORA Sporting Regulations.

Well, may I clarify one thing: I have recently taken a job driving a delivery truck on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays. Sense Haydo is taking my place in my Lexus, that part actually is in line with a couple sentences in the post I quoted.

Due to work, I am unable to attend, and Haydo happened to be the best driver available to fill my spot.

Well... This escalated quickly!

For what it's worth, and as I'm on my phone I shan't be quoting the sections of the rules that people have been quoting, the way I see it is a team needed a driver, the driver that offered to sub in just happens to be near the top in the title, but that shouldn't make a difference! The rule I've seen says that subs can be made from any team and the driver will score points for himself and that team at that round.
Granted, I saw the message that's been quoted about him hoping to stand more of a chance in the new car, but frankly what relevance is it?! If you have a rule that says you can switch cars, gaining an advantage by doing so shouldn't be an issue, unless he's creating a brand new team with the obvious sole intention of winning the drivers.

If by some absolute miracle i was fast enough to run with you guys and had been offered the chance to drive that car, would the same argument be occurring? Because surely I'd be interfering in the title run in

Michael, had you accepted the offer yesterday, you would be in my Lexus  

For some reason my old email account gets my AX4X emails so it was only this morning I saw the thread :L

TG Wormburner wrote:Berty round 1 and 2 ran the Megane as a privateer.

Round 3 he subs in a SEAT. Same race another sub comes into the same squad (Daniel).


You weren't griping here.

two subs were used in one race because 1) I was working a night shift 2) Phil was working late. If you notice mid season we used the rule correctly for our subs then we took advantage of the mid eason driver swap which was allowed as Phil could not make the remaining races so Berty joined Prodrive. Berty wasnt going to sign up orignally but chose to last minute after the teams had been organised but as real life interferred we had to make a change.

The subs were both used to score TEAM points not for that driver to gain an advantage and race in a quicker car just because he cant tune a car to run the same times. No one in the SEAT for CQR changed teams just for sunset just because the Leon was .7 tenths off the race pace we stuck with it.

EDIT: To go with another post can I ask who allowed Jono through? His chances of being in this title race at the wire have been his own doing, he proved this on a iRacing BTCC league last night by going from back to front in a spec series.

All please keep debate at civil mature level which is fine so long as it stays as within our t&c's nothing has been done all what has been asked and debated are questions.

Kilroy I am glad you stopped last night, smart move.

Any response on my car balancing enquiry?

Replied to you

SelectiveRogue wrote:Kilroy I am glad you stopped last night, smart move.

BG Chucky 82 wrote:Replied to you

Okay thank you anyway

Flyin Mikey J wrote:Well, may I clarify one thing: I have recently taken a job driving a delivery truck on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays. Sense Haydo is taking my place in my Lexus, that part actually is in line with a couple sentences in the post I quoted.

Due to work, I am unable to attend, and Haydo happened to be the best driver available to fill my spot.

Thanks Mikey! So after pages and pages of discussion and debate, we now know the real reason the joint championship leader, TG Haydo, wants to ditch his venerable Volvo - to help out Flying Mikey J who now has to work and can't race. Why didn't he just say so in the first place - everyone would understand why a driver in 20th placed Team Gizmo would rather help rival Pepsi Max AFR team in 18th place score more points than the team he signed up for!

What a magnanimous thing for TG Haydo to do at such a pivotal point in the championship, to leave his trusty car that he's tuned and raced all season long to jump into a another team in their time of need. All those reports of the Lexus being 0.7s quicker around here and posts blaming the change on the poor slow Volvo certainly had me fooled!:

TG Haydo wrote:"I've done around 70 laps prep & tried every possible build & no 32's. I need to be in the 32's for a shout of A lobby/competing for the championship."

"I've been driving the volvo all season which isn't exactly competitive and as soon as I plan on driving a car that can compete you all start moaning"

"I could sit here & tune the volvo all week and never hit that lap again. Alot of thought went into making this decision & I want to best my chances to win. "

"All I want is the chance to compete with CQR for the title, as opposed to watching them running away with all 3 spots on the podium!"

But alas, none of that was behind the decision, it was all about helping Mikey, who has to work and can't drive his Lexus next week. All hail TG Haydo, it's wonderful to see in this age of sarcasm and cynicism that the true spirit of fairness and competition toward your competitors triumphs over winning at all costs. I look forward to seeing the Pepsi Max AFR Lexus make it's A lobby debut on Tuesday!

Well... that was one way to keep a thread active lol.

We've read every post, every comment, and every part of the argument in this debate, and even though its sounds weird, Thank you for sharing your sides of it, where the issue kept mature and on-subject we were listening and taking notes, as this is how we can learn to improve the site for the future, and for everyone.

Hopefully we can move on, we now know about the loophole that NONE of the active staff or CT's has ever noticed, including myself, but nevertheless it is not so much being exploited as helping a friend's team keep going for the last race, so I do hope that is the end of it.

Remember, keep it civil and on-subject, and we can all learn from it.

Thank You.

Personally next season I would prefer to see no team members able to sub only privateers and also subs only score 95% of points. That way the team still benefits than having a no show but puts people off being a sub to gain a advantage in standings.

Or subs only score for teams championship, problem solved. If they're a sub, they're not entering the whole championship, so awarding them drivers points isn't necessary, they're there to help the team so only the team should score. But like Chris said, the rules are the rules that are written now and that is what has to be enforced, but it's good to be able to have a mature and through debate about how they can be improved in the future.