MSA TORA TCC Season 8 - General Discussion

If the Volvo isn't 'competitive', then why has it had the most wins?

And if you want to best your chances, why swap to a car slower than the SEAT?

The Volvo has had the most race wins of any car this season and is joint championship leader. You had the option to change car midway through the championship, as clearly stated in the rules. So if you were unhappy with your cars performance, that was your chance to change, not take advantage of a loop-hole in the rules to substitute yourself into a more suitable car for a specific track. All CQR's championship contenders have stayed in the same car for the entire season, I believe that's the correct way for a driver and team to conduct themselves.

I would feel that subbing for a different team to stand a better chance to win the drivers championship defines the reason for a subbed team driver.

The reason that rule was bought in is so due to a team still standing a chance in the team championship if one of there drivers is unable to take part in a race. So as in a team looking for a driver to sub for one of there drivers for there team and not a driver in a team looking to sub for another team to change car to stand a chance of winning the title.

It also says in that paragraph that a substitute driver "may only score points for the team they are driving for".

Koenigsegg R wrote:

MSA TORA TCC Season 8 - Rules and Regulations wrote:The substitute driver can come from an existing team, privateer, or any other friend. A substitute driver may only score points for the team they are driving for in any particular race, and must remain in a single car/team for an entire race meeting.

Then this sentence shouldn't be in the rules.

At the moment it does state that a substitute driver can come from an existing (team) entry.

In the other paragraph that Haydo quoted it says that a substitute driver is eligible to score points for the drivers championship.

TG Haydo wrote:For the length of the entire series, a team may make use of substitute driver if a full time driver cannot make a meeting. This substitute driver is eligible to score points for the drivers championship, and towards the point for the team they are driving for that meeting. A team has a maximum of 2 substitutes per season. Any further substitutes, and the replacement driver will not score points for the team they are driving for. Substitute drivers must be made aware to the series runners before commencing the race meeting itself.

So which is it?

As it stands, changing would not be against the rules (sorry for suggesting otherwise earlier - I was going by my mental rulebook rather than actually checking it!).  It's grey areas and loopholes (usually relating to car design in real racing) that real racing teams sometimes find their winning edges.  They're usually reviewed and the rules amended accordingly after the fact. Whether you agree with the "morality" or not Haydo is free to sub as per the rules as they stand today.

One thing that's not been explicitly said though Haydo - you can't fill an empty slot in a team, you must be "replacing" someone (i.e. substituting for another driver).  I can't see anywhere who Haydo is planning to sub for.

Actually, I believe it breaches TORA's Sporting Regulations. Haydo has categorically stated that he's changing car to 'best his own chances of winning', not to help another team out.

"T1b) Club Members behavior –

Unsportsmanlike Conduct

Other forms are willfully using non-performance technicalities to hurt another competitor’s point standings to the benefit of one’s own"


A loop-hole in the rules allowing a driver to hop cars would seem to be a 'non-performance technicality'.

CQR Deuce wrote:It also says in that paragraph that a substitute driver "may only score points for the team they are driving for".

Koenigsegg R wrote:

MSA TORA TCC Season 8 - Rules and Regulations wrote:The substitute driver can come from an existing team, privateer, or any other friend. A substitute driver may only score points for the team they are driving for in any particular race, and must remain in a single car/team for an entire race meeting.

Then this sentence shouldn't be in the rules.

At the moment it does state that a substitute driver can come from an existing (team) entry.

In the other paragraph that Haydo quoted it says that a substitute driver is eligible to score points for the drivers championship.

TG Haydo wrote:For the length of the entire series, a team may make use of substitute driver if a full time driver cannot make a meeting. This substitute driver is eligible to score points for the drivers championship, and towards the point for the team they are driving for that meeting. A team has a maximum of 2 substitutes per season. Any further substitutes, and the replacement driver will not score points for the team they are driving for. Substitute drivers must be made aware to the series runners before commencing the race meeting itself.

So which is it?

To quote the rule in full, and then clarify:

- Substitute Drivers

For the length of the entire series, a team may make use of substitute driver if a full time driver cannot make a meeting. This substitute driver is eligible to score points for the drivers championship, and towards the point for the team they are driving for that meeting. A team has a maximum of 2 substitutes per season. Any further substitutes, and the replacement driver will not score points for the team they are driving for. Substitute drivers must be made aware to the series runners before commencing the race meeting itself.

The substitute driver can come from an existing team, privateer, or any other friend. A substitute driver may only score points for the team they are driving for in any particular race, and must remain in a single car/team for an entire race meeting.

This basically means that the driver scores DC points for themselves and TC points for the team they are driving for in that round. The final two sentences are there to clarify that the TC points are for the team the driver is driving for in that round (if they have come across from another team to substitute for the round). e.g. I drive for CQR Prodrive. If I switch to CQR Fusion for a round, I score points for myself, and CQR Fusion, NOT Prodrive for that round, and then in theory go back to Prodrive again for the remainder of the series.

I'm not intending to sub for a newly created team just for a round. The plan is to swap to a team that needs a driver, (a team that has been competing all season). It may not be for the team championship but for a team that has been competing all season and wants to finish higher in the championship

Yeah my brain finally caught up!  Cheers Aero!

Completely contradicting your earlier post where your reason for changing car was 'to best your own chances of winning'. Now you're trying to hide that under the smokescreen of helping out another team, no?

TG Haydo wrote:I'm not intending to sub for a newly created team just for a round. The plan is to swap to a team that needs a driver, (a team that has been competing all season). It may not be for the team championship but for a team that has been competing all season and wants to finish higher in the championship

As I said, you need to replace a driver in that team to be "substituting" for them....

I think this calls for a rule change for next season involving substitute drivers.

Any driver (registered or not) can substitute for another team UNLESS they are a regular driver that is eligible for the championship.

CQR MAGiC wrote:Apparently allowed by the TORA rules, but completely against the spirit of them. Wish I'd swapped cars and substituted every round now if that's how people want to race:

Silverstone - sub in Megane
Catalunya - sub in Cupra
Tsukuba - sub in Cupra
Mugello - sub in Lexus
Sunset - sub in Honda
Nurburgring - sub in Megane

= Champion

Or, everyone could just race the car they signed up in and take the good tracks and bad tracks for a car as they come.

Sorry Haydo, changing cars now you've already had your good rounds is unsportsmanlike behaviour.

Hmmm 5 out of the 6 races seem to be dominated by fwd like you have just said yourself. His volvo is not up there because its not quick enough. TBH I don't care I think it's pathetic how serious you all take it crying about who's car is faster. Maybe you should all pick the same car next season no excuses if your that bothered who is " FASTER". Its a game I understand that you want to play competitive but calm down. Just sounds like people don't want haydo on the same car because he will beat them
Maybe they should jump in a volvo! Good night

My previous post doesn't say anything about me not doing it for the driver's championship but saying I intend on going for a team that has been competing all season. As for switching cars mid season I already said that my teammate wanted to stay in the volvo. I wanted to switch car & if I knew he wasn't going to show I would have changd

TG Haydo wrote:I'm not intending to sub for a newly created team just for a round. The plan is to swap to a team that needs a driver, (a team that has been competing all season). It may not be for the team championship but for a team that has been competing all season and wants to finish higher in the championship

I was happy to sit it out and let this run it's course but you appear to be committed to tying yourself in knots now.

I have publicly and privately given your team a huge amount of credit for being so competitive in the Volvo - it may statistically be the strongest car in the field but there are very few people that could have done so well in it.......for that you should be applauded. I would even have been happy to applaud you for spotting the loophole in the rules, even though I find the idea of taking advantage of it deplorable. However, if you want to now try and convince me that this 'subbing' idea is for any other reason than to give yourself the best chance of winning the Drivers Championship then I will lose all respect for what you have achieved so far......come on, you've even said this is the reason earlier in this thread  

If you had a clear conscience you would not now be trying to backtrack and hide behind this sudden 'I'm helping out another team' idea you've decided to concoct. If you were only concerned with the team you are supposedly helping out then you wouldn't have wanted to clarify the rules regarding Drivers Championship points in the first place  

We all knew the track list and car list before the season started, we all chose our cars accordingly - I've never been a supporter of allowing people to change cars mid-season but if it's in the rules then so be it. As MAGiC has pointed out your idea contravenes the TORA Code Of Conduct but if the decision is to allow you to 'sub' then I'll carry on regardless.

At the end of the day we are a group of like minded people playing a computer game, supposedly for fun

TG Haydo wrote:My previous post doesn't say anything about me not doing it for the driver's championship but saying I intend on going for a team that has been competing all season. As for switching cars mid season I already said that my teammate wanted to stay in the volvo. I wanted to switch car & if I knew he wasn't going to show I would have changd

I think this post did not help

TG Haydo wrote:All I want is the chance to compete with CQR for the title, as opposed to watching them running away with all 3 spots on the podium!

TPR Watkin wrote:

CQR MAGiC wrote:Apparently allowed by the TORA rules, but completely against the spirit of them. Wish I'd swapped cars and substituted every round now if that's how people want to race:

Silverstone - sub in Megane
Catalunya - sub in Cupra
Tsukuba - sub in Cupra
Mugello - sub in Lexus
Sunset - sub in Honda
Nurburgring - sub in Megane

= Champion

Or, everyone could just race the car they signed up in and take the good tracks and bad tracks for a car as they come.

Sorry Haydo, changing cars now you've already had your good rounds is unsportsmanlike behaviour.

Hmmm 5 out of the 6 races seem to be dominated by fwd like you have just said yourself. His volvo is not up there because its not quick enough. TBH I don't care I think it's pathetic how serious you all take it crying about who's car is faster. Maybe you should all pick the same car next season no excuses if your that bothered who is " FASTER". Its a game I understand that you want to play competitive but calm down. Just sounds like people don't want haydo on the same car because he will beat them
Maybe they should jump in a volvo! Good night

Utter rubbish. The Volvo has been the most successful car in the championship with 6 wins. The Volvo was 0.7s quicker than the SEAT at Sunset. Did I complain, No. It's part of the championship - one car is good at one track, another is good at the next. To hop cars now that the Volvo has encountered a 'weaker' track is against the spirit of the championship, even if the rules (via a loophole) allow it. Again, I believe it breaches the TORA Sporting Regulations, those surely supercede any individual championship rules and should be rigorously enforced.

We have a spec championship if you wish to settle the differences there?

I can sense Beanz holding back his memes

I do wonder what would have happened if Nurburgring was Round 5 and Sunset was Round 6.

Kilroy8 wrote:I can sense Beanz holding back his memes

 

Kilroy8 wrote:We have a spec championship if you wish to settle the differences there?

.

You're completely missing the point, this isn't about one driver trying to prove their better than another, it's a driver willfully using a loophole in the regulations to improve their own chances, to the determinant of other competitors. This clearly breaches the TORA Sporting Regulations, has anyone bothered to read them lately?  

CQR MAGiC wrote:

Kilroy8 wrote:We have a spec championship if you wish to settle the differences there?

.

You're completely missing the point, this isn't about one driver trying to prove their better than another, it's a driver willfully using a loophole in the regulations to improve their own chances, to the determinant of other competitors.

But Red Bull do that every year.

CQR MAGiC wrote:This clearly breaches the TORA Sporting Regulations, has anyone bothered to read them lately?  

Yes. I've been forced to read them

Kilroy8 wrote:

CQR MAGiC wrote:

Kilroy8 wrote:We have a spec championship if you wish to settle the differences there?

.

You're completely missing the point, this isn't about one driver trying to prove their better than another, it's a driver willfully using a loophole in the regulations to improve their own chances, to the determinant of other competitors.

But Red Bull do that every year.

CQR MAGiC wrote:This clearly breaches the TORA Sporting Regulations, has anyone bothered to read them lately?  

Yes. I've been forced to read them

Red Bull find loopholes to benefit the team as a whole, not an individual driver. Both Webber and Vettel have the system that emulates TCS, not just one of them. That benefits the team as a whole, not just one of them.

Forget it

Kilroy8 wrote:Forget it

Good idea - shame it got brought up in the first place  

CQR MAGiC wrote:

TPR Watkin wrote:

CQR MAGiC wrote:Apparently allowed by the TORA rules, but completely against the spirit of them. Wish I'd swapped cars and substituted every round now if that's how people want to race:

Silverstone - sub in Megane
Catalunya - sub in Cupra
Tsukuba - sub in Cupra
Mugello - sub in Lexus
Sunset - sub in Honda
Nurburgring - sub in Megane

= Champion

Or, everyone could just race the car they signed up in and take the good tracks and bad tracks for a car as they come.

Sorry Haydo, changing cars now you've already had your good rounds is unsportsmanlike behaviour.

Hmmm 5 out of the 6 races seem to be dominated by fwd like you have just said yourself. His volvo is not up there because its not quick enough. TBH I don't care I think it's pathetic how serious you all take it crying about who's car is faster. Maybe you should all pick the same car next season no excuses if your that bothered who is " FASTER". Its a game I understand that you want to play competitive but calm down. Just sounds like people don't want haydo on the same car because he will beat them
Maybe they should jump in a volvo! Good night

Utter rubbish. The Volvo has been the most successful car in the championship with 6 wins. The Volvo was 0.7s quicker than the SEAT at Sunset. Did I complain, No. It's part of the championship - one car is good at one track, another is good at the next. To hop cars now that the Volvo has encountered a 'weaker' track is against the spirit of the championship, even if the rules (via a loophole) allow it. Again, I believe it breaches the TORA Sporting Regulations, those surely supercede any individual championship rules and should be rigorously enforced.

Lol seat shows up twice the car you would have picked. Not once did you pick the volvo. I am sorry to say buddy but your talking "UTTER RUBBISH"