MSA TORA TCC Season 8 - General Discussion

Maybe I don't like Volvo's?

Perhaps he just prefers to race in FWD cars??? Just a thought.

^ Correct. And that's why TCC has a selection of each, so that drivers can choose what they prefer, not pick and choose a FWD/RWD car depending on which is best at a particular track.

You weren't picking what you like because you picked the lexus
You chose your championship winning cars per round. Snookered

I like the Lexus.

I was TORA TCC 2011 NGTC champion in a Lexus.
And Season 6 Champion in a FWD Kia cee'd.

Checkmate.

#FastInAnyCar

CQR MAGiC wrote:#FastInAnyCar

#ButSlowInAVolvo

Sorry, couldn't resist   

Anyway I'm off to bed guys good luck with your cars and tunes I dont know if I can race yet but I hope so I had to miss the 5th round. Catch ya later.

CQR Jono wrote:

CQR MAGiC wrote:#FastInAnyCar

#ButSlowInAVolvo

Sorry, couldn't resist   

That's not his fault though, apparently the Volvo is just off the pace....... who knew??

Must be all those airbags

Checkmate is not part of being snookered. Thats called check.
mod edit language cheers - Duncan

Has CQR used a substitute driver at all this series?

If so did it benefit their team for one round?

If it's also a yes then a driver changing a car to benefit himself for one round is no different. You can like one rule that benefits you for one championship but don't like another rule that doesn't in a separate championship now? Something doesn't seem right.

TG Wormburner wrote:Has CQR used a substitute driver at all this series?

If so did it benefit their team for one round?

If it's also a yes then a driver changing a car to benefit himself for one round is no different. You can like one rule that benefits you for one championship but don't like another rule that doesn't in a separate championship now? Something doesn't seem right.

Koenisegg substituted for HABURi at Tsukuba (Koenisegg was not already entered in the series).
Daniel substituted for PHIL at Tsukuba (Daniel was not already entered in the series).
Rusty substituted for Smokey at Mugello (Rusty was not already entered in the series).

Completely different scenario to a driver already entered in the series hopping to another team.

TG Wormburner wrote:Has CQR used a substitute driver at all this series?

If so did it benefit their team for one round?

If it's also a yes then a driver changing a car to benefit himself for one round is no different. You can like one rule that benefits you for one championship but don't like another rule that doesn't in a separate championship now? Something doesn't seem right.

Yes we did but this rule was brought in to help teams in the 'TEAM' championship not to allow drivers to switch to a preffered car for one round and skip a penalty from not changing mid-season.

But it's still a rule right?

Changing to Rusty isn't a downgrade by any means. I see why you're upset but if you're using a rule by changing either driver or car then complaining about someone doing the same how does it change things up? I see a lot of similarities in the two and it is in fact a rule.

Because all those driver substitutions were made to replace a driver who was unable to attend that round (work, other commitments etc), which is the intention of the driver substitution rule.

Haydo has already admitted that he is using this rule to move from the team he signed up for to a more competitive car to give himself a competitive advantage, not to replace a driver who is unable to attend. That is not the same thing at all and breaches the TORA Sporting Regulations.

TG Wormburner wrote:But it's still a rule right?

I've not seen anyone question whether Hayden's proposal is against the series rules - I apologise if I've missed a post that does.

What has been questioned is whether the proposal contravenes the TORA Code Of Conduct & Sporting Regulations which underpin the whole site - I personally believe it does.

As I've said previously in this thread I would happily applaud anyone that finds a loophole in a set of rules - whether I agree with exploiting it is not really important in the grand scheme of things. What I find particularly distasteful though is the u-turn made by Hayden once the morality of his proposal was questioned - at least have the courage to stand by your convictions.

For the record I don't agree with either instance. I think you sign up for a car that is your car and your team is your team. Any changes to those mean you have a new car or team and you should score zero points before the date of change. Both instances are taking advantage of the rules.

You subbed Thom, Daniel, and Rusty in for crying out loud. If there was an HLC in all of Forza you didn't even reach out of the top 75 for your drivers. That's more of an advantage than switching a car ever will be. That should be considered a breach of the regulations on the same platform you are proposing and can undermine just as much or more. Anyone can be "away". You see where this is heading or where it can in the future?

Alas I agree with neither and I'll step away. Just didn't like the insinuation that one thing was bad or manipulative while you were doing another.

TG Wormburner wrote:For the record I don't agree with either instance. I think you sign up for a car that is your car and your team is your team.

All 4 CQR championship contenders (myself, Jono, NEON and Type R) have stayed in the same car they signed up in and have used no substitute drivers. So of the championship 'contenders', it is one of your own drivers that is not in accordance with your own beliefs.

You've got different rules for the teams championship though?

If the point of a sub driver is to help out a team, they should only score team points, not drivers. Sadly I don't make the rules. All of CQR's substitutions were to score team points (as the rule is there for), not to help individual drivers score drivers points.

Did you allow Jono to get through to manipulate points?

I can point at quite a few instances to undermine or twist words and rules up to where it seems that is the case just as you are. Racing is about finding a competitive advantage but god forbid it go against your own it seems. You guys have a great team but this is quite poor behavior on your part and I've expressed my point to Hayden about disagreeing with his switching of cars. I'm upset that people are speaking out of both sides of their mouth is all.

Thom, Daniel, Rusty.....that should say enough about manipulation.

These are your words, not mine.

Other forms are willfully using non-performance technicalities to hurt another competitor’s point standings to the benefit of one’s own

BTW, I'm getting sick in the next championship running I'm close in and Box is going to sub for me. I bet you'd raise almighty hell if that happened so please spare me the technical argument of team vs driver, they are both championships.

Why are you arguing with someone who already agrees with you Worm? We entered 5 teams in the TCC and all 5 teams have stayed in the same car throughout. It's your own driver who wants to change teams to get in a 'better' car, not any of us. I'd prefer it if series didn't have car changes, in fact I don't think I've ever changed car in any series I've entered.

Daniel, Rusty and Koenigsegg were all NEW drivers to the series when they substituted, none were entered in a team already. Haydo has already entered 12 races for Team Gizmo and now wants to become a substitute in another team to get a better car for the final round. That's manipulation Worm.

And as for your Box point... I would welcome Box joining an existing team to help them in their championship chances - Box joining the TCC in a Team Gizmo Volvo would be the correct way for a racing team to conduct their operations, bringing a fast driver into your existing team to support your current drivers. That's driver substitution done correctly, as was done with Daniel (to support CQR Prodrive), Koenigsegg (to support CQR IKEA) and Rusty (to support CQR John Deere). What appears to have happened is the Team Gizmo Volvo team has become a one driver operation, he has no support from his team mates and thinks the best option is to abandon his Team Gizmo car and substitute for another team to keep his championship chances alive. I'll leave it to you to conclude which team is functioning correctly.

I think you've missed something fundamental Worm. The substitute drivers CQR teams have used have effectively been "outsiders" not previously registered to race in the series (in other teams), whereas Haydo's intention to switch teams is exactly that, regardless of whether it's legal or not.

To use an example we can all recognise:

Take an F1 team, lets say HRT who have been known to have 3 drivers race for them in one season. All three drivers score points for themselves in the drivers championship, but they all score towards the constructors championship.
There have been cases of drivers being injured and the teams' reserve driver stepping up to substitute until the main driver's return. This is what the TORA sub system is meant to be like. Not Hamilton filling in for Vettel when he's off sick, and then going back to Mercedes for the rest of the season!

Using your example, if Box subbed for you, he would score points for himself and your team. That wouldn't be an issue. YOU wouldn't score points in the drivers championship for him driving though.

An F1 team can't find a Vettel, let alone Vettel, Hamilton, and Alonso on the street to fill in for a race over the course of a season which is effectively what CQR has done.

A championship is a championship and a rule is a rule. Both have been used and both should not be changed until the season is complete. End of, when you signed up you agreed to the rules.