TORA Endurance Championship: Silverstone 6 Hour General Discussion/Driver Briefing

FIA LMC ALFL0 wrote:Sorry to tell you that but I ran into one and I saw all other races and no FIA driver hit you I even received complaints from you from a pilot that you kicked you off the track and broke the car

I tried to record that, but Cortana failed to listen to me. I believe it was Jose in the GT Corvette, he moved across the entire track coming into Maggot's when I was already inside...

As a GT driver in lobby 1 I will say that the majority of the LMP's were fine. The only ones that I had an issue with appeared to be the slower/less experienced drivers, as they were the ones more likely to take unpredictable lines and go for hasty passes.

The single most problematic area of the entire track was Corpse. There really is only one line to take there, and because of the speed/braking differences it's very easy for a GT car to accidentally close the door on a prototype car who dives from around 30+ feet behind just by taking the normal line. There were about 3 incidents that I had in this corner, one of which was actually captured on Solar's stream. Because it didn't affect the outcome of the race I will not be pursuing any action from the stewards for any of the incidents. A different LMP actually wiped me out on another lap after Corpse and caused both me and him to spin out. When he passed me later in the lap he made a massive unforced error at Vale, which tells me that the crash was likely due to impatience/inexperience from his part.

One more thing I will say about the GTs is that odds are some of us were running Max front aero aero, no rear aero setups on our cars, which works wonders around this track but if forced into a weird line can make the car act a bit wonky due to the looseness. Of course it's our responsibility to sort this out but just wanted to raise awareness to it.

Here's to hoping Eau Rouge won't cause similar issues.

I don't necessarily think its a question of many drivers driving badly, from my experience most GT drivers were okay in stint 1, I did not mind waiting a corner or two to pass, but the real issue is I don't thin some people read the rules properly. As an LMP driver we are told that the GT drivers are in their race and do not have to yield, as the faster class we have to make our own way past. I find that fine, however some of the less experienced/possibly slower GT drivers were either trying to be too kind by moving off the racing line causing confusion or just taking erratic lines altogether. In one instance I came up to pass 2 GTs into stowe, one of which continued his line and another that veered into the middle of the track as if to give me the acing line on the outside of the track. In my opinion the cause of the majority of the incidents is the lack of consistency between GT drivers reactions to LMPs. When some people stick to the racing line and others try to get out of the way it causes an unknown of how the oncoming GT car will react as its hard to tell who is who quickly due to the closing speed. I'd rather every GT car pretended the LMPs weren't there than a split of trying to be kind and those who rightly stick to their lines. Simply put, as LMPs we should not expect anyone to yield, and assume every GT is going to stick to the racing line and accept we have to go off line. But unfortunately there's confusion as some drivers move across the track as to get out out of the way, whilst others don't and that's whats causing incidents. (I'm assuming that everyone in the series is talented enough to be spatially aware)

Truth be told Europa, if I pretended the LMP drivers weren't there...my races would have ended long before they did. I've raced in plenty of multi-class events in the upper and lower classes. What I saw from some of the LMP drivers actually looked like they were pretending WE weren't on the track or we were AI and our races didn't mean a damn thing. If I simply went about my business holding my line...it would have been much worse. In my opinion of what happened, simply from one side...some of the LMP drivers were looking to be the human highlight reel taking huge risks to make the daring and dumb pass instead of being respectful of everybody on track. If you're that close to the driver in front of you, wouldn't it be safe to say that you could fall in line and catch him within the next few laps? YES. That's what real LMP drivers do because taking that risk isn't worth thousands of dollars in damage or a drivers life. We may not have those risks but at least then people wouldn't have their day ruined. It makes me want to switch to LMP just so I don't have to deal with this crap. To be clear...it was't EVERY single LMP driver as some were very respectful and trust me...it's appreciated by all GT drivers. People need to make better decisions when passing and think about the ridiculous amount of hours people put into these races and events and how their split second decision can basically crap on all of it. I could have easily put in three SI's but without replays, Cortana being a deaf joke and the fact that it won't change a damn thing...I digress, as usual. Let us hope the next round goes way better.

Darkzer24 wrote:

FIA LMC ALFL0 wrote:Sorry to tell you that but I ran into one and I saw all other races and no FIA driver hit you I even received complaints from you from a pilot that you kicked you off the track and broke the car

I tried to record that, but Cortana failed to listen to me. I believe it was Jose in the GT Corvette, he moved across the entire track coming into Maggot's when I was already inside...

That same FIA Corvette did something similar to me through the final double right hander section leading on to the start/finish straight. He gave me the outside, which I took, and when I was fully alongside him, he hip checked me multiple times and forced me off onto the grass exiting the final corner.

No point in naming and shaming guys, just goes from stating points/facts to become a gentlemans sausage war for no reasons pretty fast.

In my time racing here I have gone from being totally confident with LMP guys going past me in 'tricky' situations such as bridge corner/maggots and Beckett complex or even diving from 225mph into mulsanne corner. With this also dealing with there battles they maybe having.

However nowadays  and I first say this at Sebring last year is people just not planning ahead or predicting there moves 2/3 corners in advance.
I don't drive LMP cars competitively at TORA I'm a GTE driver till I die but I have done so on other sites so I understand it's so difficult to do this when trying to stay on pace or overtake due to areo wash etc but you just have too think what your doing.

Maybe for Spa one of the staff/CT organise a test day so all the crashes can be gotten out of the way before hand. In this session feel free to find how much balls you have at eau rouge.
It worked when I used to help out around here and organise them.

And if that doesn't solve the issues then us GTE guys have to band together and #elbowsout

HCR Hamish wrote:

TheCowmaster934 wrote:As a counterpoint, during stint one the LMP drivers were driving so aggressively that it wouldn't matter what we did.  The number of times I had an LMP car launch it down the inside of my from ridiculously far back and then clip me was insane.  We have a race to run too and less room for error and should not have to try and guess how crazy the guy behind you is.  You can wait a turn or two to get around.  Yeah it may hurt you but not as badly as if you collide with the car you are passing.  Also, track limits were atrocious.  Its hard enough to know where an LMP will go on track much less if they decide off the track is fair game to pass

What you're seeing as a mad dive probably isn't to the lmp car. I don't know the circumstances you're referring to but from my point of view I make a clean pass down the inside of a turn on braking to get 3/4 of my car ahead only for the GT to the turn in as if there is no car there and take us both out. I know you've to stick to you're line but it needs to be remembered that it's still a pass even if it's from a faster class. As for passing off the track it happened to me a few times where I've picked a side to pass only for the car to keep moving over to the edge and push me off the track. I'm not saying the lmps were perfect as I have made massive blunders before, but I think both sides could do with making a massive improvement for the next race. Also I think there are some lmps that need to read the blue flags rules. Defending like it's for the lead on the last lap while you're being lapped is not acceptable.

Just because you can get alongside by the end of the braking zone does not mean it is not a mad dive. I had a couple that got alongside after massive dives from really far back, problem being it is impossible for us to tell if you will make it by the corner or not so we turn in and suddenly there is an LMP there. If you are only getting overlap at the turn in point that is too late. It compromises their lines in ways the LMP's shouldn't be especially when they can pass on exit extremely easily.

It goes both ways, and the only way to learn is by experience. Your view changes as you come to realize the bigger picture. Most people only give a **** about their own race, but those who have been around long know better.

I've driven in the better part of 20 endurance events and I can tell you that etiquette varies per driver, and the relationship between each driver (faster to slower class) makes a unique situation.

The letter of the rule states that LMP drivers must hold find their way past GT drivers. GT drivers are expected to hold a steady line. Now, what this does not state is the "spirit" of the rule, which is where confusion and frustration can be found.

First off, if an LMP is close enough to pull aside a GT in a braking zone, then said GT driver should've been well aware that they were close. It shouldn't be a surprise. The mini-map clearly shows when cars are getting close. You can look in your mirrors, and even look back to see where people are. There's no excuse for not being aware of an LMP car approaching. Just because the "rule" states LMP must find a way past doesn't mean that 100% of the time they have to go off the racing line. There is some give and take to be had.

You can't expect everyone to follow this, so sometimes you have to make judgment calls based on who you're passing. If the person ahead of you seems erratic, as an LMP driver, I'll do my best to get by them as quickly as possible, even if a move seems a bit sudden. Why? So that I don't get caught out by that person being all over the place, possibly wrecking us both. As a GT driver, if I see an erratic LMP driver approaching, I hope they catch me in a safe place, or if they catch me in a bad spot, I dictate with track positioning where I want them to go. As an example, on the entrance to Maggots, it's not a great place to pass cleanly, so I'll set my car towards the right-hand side of the track so that LMP drivers don't risk it and try to blitz by with inches to spare. They may be annoyed, but I'm saving them from getting obliterated when they clip my nose and wonder "why I didn't give room"...

Judging whether or not an LMP intends to make a pass also comes with experience. I know about 95% of the time when a pass is going to be made, but that goes back to being aware of what's going on around me. When I'm in LMP, I'm constantly watching my mini-map and the track way up ahead to see when I'm going to catch GT traffic. I plan my passes out a few turns in advance, occasionally further. Sometimes you have to make a slight adjustment as you get close, but you learn to predict things with decent accuracy, and it makes it easier on you.

TL;DR- GT drivers have to realize that there is a race going on in a class other than their own, and LMP drivers have to realize that there is a race going in a class other than their own. Have some leeway and try to co-exist.

F4H Diablo wrote:

TL;DR- GT drivers have to realize that there is a race going on in a class other than their own, and LMP drivers have to realize that there is a race going in a class other than their own. Have some leeway and try to co-exist.

+1

I understand all of that. I think my point was more that if the LMP makes alongside after the GT turns in, that is too late as that car has committed to the corner and cannot do much at that point in time other than go off track. And I could tell when the LMP's were going to make a move but sometimes that is not enough if I've already committed. The worst was coming into turn 16 because LMP's were making late dives there and on more than a few occasions because it is such a slow corner they would miss it and as such compromise the GT's turn in and exit because they were reentering.