MSA TORA NATCC Season 2 - General Discussion

BG Wingnut396 wrote:may i ask one simple question why now when we have had 5 meetings and coming up to meeting 6 that people then make it a problem about how we start a race
MSA British touring runs a parade lap yes this is a game but aint we triyng to do the same as that as it is a MSA event.
All it needs from what i can gather is a little common sense and listen to the host once the drivers are in place then listen for the start time SIMPLE.

Emphatic No! Why would we follow something from the real races if we don't have to? Just to eat up our limited replay time and cause havoc in the beginnings? This is a mindset that needs to change! TORA is losing drivers because of the constant shyt before the races. We don't have to follow every dumb rule the real series follows. They are driving REAL cars. We are not. They are all professional drivers. We are not. They don't have lag. We do. They don't have limited replay time. We do. I don't get it...people constantly bitch and complain during the races because of what we're discussing yet when it comes to the actual discussion, everyone wants to keep the shyt the same. I'm one of the people who week after week sees this happen, don't cause it but have to follow in annoyance wondering why we willingly put ourselves through this for a stupid parade lap. The constant running of warmup laps because of shyt driving is getting old.

The reason for this current discussion coming up has already been explained. We're not asking it to be changed now. We're asking it to be re-evaluated whenever possible.

BG Wingnut396 wrote:well if you watched Thruxton on sunday or any other race then you will see how long they are sat there the parade lap is great and if people was to use a little common sense then you wouldnt be sat on the line for so long because if you are coming to the end of the parade lap then you start forming as a rolling start but a little more spaced then you will get into slots quicker and easier and personally cant see and have not seen any problems with it at all

If, if, if...you're asking for something that is never going to happen. These problems will persist because of lag and lack of experience driving real cars.

well can i say that there as not been one complaint from the TCC side only seems to becoming from NATCC

BG Wingnut396 wrote:well can i say that there as not been one complaint from the TCC side only seems to becoming from NATCC

I'm referring to all series across the board not just NATCC. You're telling me we are how many races into the series and TCC hasn't had any restarts or boner warmup lap damage?

If you drop out of the race lobby to a party lobby and then try to get everyone back into a new race lobby for the next race (because lobby points will be from the formation race + actual race) then more often than not it will drop people out of the room.

Therefore if you can get straight into the races and use the warm up lap to set the grid then it speeds up the whole process providing drivers are respectful on the warm up lap and give each other space.

At the last TCC meeting we (Lobby A) had all 3 races done by 10PM, with no restarts, which was less than 2 hours after starting the qualifying session. If we had to drop out and restart the lobby, re-invite those who the game dropped and run a formation race before every race then you'd easily be looking at an extra 30 minutes, if not more and that is without any additional restarts.


Personally, I would rather see no restarts and more SIs unless cars are unable to move and/or are a danger to other racers.

BG Cowboy wrote:If you drop out of the race lobby to a party lobby and then try to get everyone back into a new race lobby for the next race (because lobby points will be from the formation race + actual race) then more often than not it will drop people out of the room.

Therefore if you can get straight into the races and use the warm up lap to set the grid then it speeds up the whole process providing drivers are respectful on the warm up lap and give each other space.

At the last TCC meeting we (Lobby A) had all 3 races done by 10PM, with no restarts, which was less than 2 hours after starting the qualifying session. If we had to drop out and restart the lobby, re-invite those who the game dropped and run a formation race before every race then you'd easily be looking at an extra 30 minutes, if not more and that is without any additional restarts.


Personally, I would rather see no restarts and more SIs unless cars are unable to move and/or are a danger to other racers.

Why would you have to restart the lobby? Not getting that because it would never be necessary. The host can back out and reenter a lobby without losing anybody. Then...a formation race of a total of 2 minutes max which again gets everyone in the right spot for additional restarts. Going away with restarts and pushing SI's is a great idea if you want 50% of the drivers to get pissed and quit the series.

Honestly, I think SI's are for panzies and the same few people are the typicals usually putting them in...just my opinion. Some are justified but most are a crock of horse dung.

BG Wingnut396 wrote:
All it needs from what i can gather is a little common sense and listen to the host once the drivers are in place then listen for the start time SIMPLE.

+ 1 million

Exactly Wingnut, there's no issue with the start procedure. The problem the other night was too much chatter and joking around and not listening to the pole setter or the host instructions.

I do like the way the WTCC does the starts.

BloodYCaiN wrote:Why would you have to restart the lobby? Not getting that because it would never be necessary. The host can back out and reenter a lobby without losing anybody. Then...a formation race of a total of 2 minutes max which again gets everyone in the right spot for additional restarts. Going away with restarts and pushing SI's is a great idea if you want 50% of the drivers to get pissed and quit the series.

You would have to restart the lobby because Formation Race 1 points + Race 1 race points =/= Race 1 finishing order points. Therefore you cannot simply order the grid by lobby points for Race 2.

Backing out and re-entering is what I was talking about but when you get towards double digit amounts of people in a lobby then the process can take a while and it can drop people. Sometimes these people cannot reconnect and a new lobby needs to be started. Then once everyone is in you still need to run a formation race so everyone is in the right grid slot. That all takes time, time that some of us are tight on because we have other priorities outside of TORA so the quicker the race procedure can be made then the better for everyone, right? For 10 minutes of qualifying and 60 minutes of racing to potentially be taking more than 150 minutes is pushing it to the absolute limit.



Personally, I think some people are too aggressive at the start of a race because they have the 'get-out-of-jail-free card' of a restart. Limiting restarts and using SIs would do nothing to hurt those who show a healthy respect towards their fellow racers but would force those who are perhaps too aggressive to think twice next time if they know they can, and will, be penalised for being overly aggressive. Sure, there would be a teething period but you never get something for nothing. A decline in driving standards has been mentioned before on TORA and I'm just thinking aloud about ways in which it could be improved.

150 minutes is technically the time window i am working with currently. setting/opening up Q lobbies, the Q session itself, Getting it all sorted for the Race lobbies, the 3 races, entering in the finishing orders into the spreadsheet, uploading replays to my SF. Adding more variables, as Cowboy mentioned, could extend the night much longer than it should. as it stands, i'm already losing 75 minutes of sleep every other Tuesday to organize this series at the 9pm EDT start time. (yes, i normally go to bed reasonably early at around 10p, but this way i don't have to rely on caffeine to wake me up/get me going)

What is it about someone bringing a suggestion to this thread that makes it turn into childish bickering?

"Don't screw around on restarts."

--"But other people do it!"

"Can we find a way to do without the warm up laps?"

--"That's a stupid idea!"

"Can we look into..."

--"NO!!!"

Driving on cold tyres is fun

Seems since TORA has been found the last 3-4 months, we've picked up quite a few drivers that have different driving standards. I can't remember being punted off the track during the warmup lap 6-8 months ago. Really people need to keep the chatter down during the final stage of lineup and listen for the start. It's not that damn difficult!

In my opinion, I like the idea to continue with the warming lap's, and those things that the staff do. Generally, the problem here is the person who control the Lobby's. The lobby host should be take this seriously and he/her is the only person who maintain control of the meetings. I know that this is just a "game" for some people, but if you see, TORA is in another level that other sites would like it. We need to put more interest on what we do because right now the eyes are on TORA. For my experience, at this level that TORA has right now, it is the time to make some adjustments.

Wingnut, If your idea is to put a SI's against to the person who has inapropieate conduct. My question is: The staff will put a SI against to the lobby's host? he/her is the person who permit such conduct? If your idea is push the drivres or the lobby's host to quit the Serie, I agree with you, but if your idea is maitain everyone happy, you are not in the right way. This kind of action sometimes is not the right way, but if you identify the person who has such conduct, and in private you contact him and advise him, for the first time, on the second time, you suspend him one race, third time, you suspend from entire Serie, and he/her continue with such conduct independing who is or are, a formal action should be take off.

There are other procedures more diplomatic that put an investigation when is not necessary.

Shall you have any questions, please contact me.

DeweyTee wrote:Seems since TORA has been found the last 3-4 months, we've picked up quite a few drivers that have different driving standards. I can't remember being punted off the track during the warmup lap 6-8 months ago. Really people need to keep the chatter down during the final stage of lineup and listen for the start. It's not that damn difficult!

I agree with you Dewey.

Well, I still think that restarts should warrant a steward inquiry.

^ Only problem is that SI's require some sort of replay evidence... hard to get a replay with a quit race/restart.

That is why what happens to cause a restart doesn't get investigated by Stewards.

Bruno, before that, first, they should be review the handbook to add new rules to support their investigation. Second, how you will open an investigation when you don't have any supporting video to confirm that kind of action. Third, to open an inquiry you need prove that this kind of action occurred. There are many things that they need to think before do any inapropiate action. As a said before, there are other procedures more diplomatic that open an investigation when is not necessary.

DTechPR wrote:... to open an inquiry you need prove that this kind of action occurred.
...

The proof is in the restart itself. If there was no incident, we would not need a restart (aside from incorrect lobby settings).

Flyin Mikey J wrote:^ Only problem is that SI's require some sort of replay evidence... hard to get a replay with a quit race/restart.

That is why what happens to cause a restart doesn't get investigated by Stewards.

This I know, but, there are other ways to investigate an incident.

Use a bit of detective work. Without a replay the stewards would be needing to have a nice little chat with those that were involved in the incident. The people that request the restarts and the people that cause the restarts should be able to spare a bit of their own time in the following week(s) to vindicate themselves. This is only fair after making all of the other racers in the lobby take the additional time to restart the race.

The reason why we are not doing this should not be because there is no video evidence. If anything, the reason why we are not doing this should be because of the increased work load on the stewards. And there are ways to deal with increased work loads.

100% agreed, Mr. Bruno!

Case in point: Darkside and I got into it accidentally in turn 1 a couple races ago, and being impromptu host I had to make that uncomfortable call (which benefited myself) to restart. Only difference was everyone in the lobby said it was fine, because the ensuing bottleneck was unfair to everyone else as well. But I'd have had no problems explaining that to the stewards, so all's fair.

now can we define what is required for a restart it has to be more than 50% involved which to be honest is quite hard to do and a restart like that doesnt happen very often in most cases usual field for lobbys are 12-13 and norrmally if something happens there are normal 4-5 cars involved which technically is not a restart i do hear people agree if someone needs a restart even though they were not involved so that they can either try again on the start or because they feel bad for those who was involved in the accident
this is not a dig at drivers but just an example because i know it happens

In my lobby if something happens I check with the whole lobby if a restart would like to take place. With restarts not being able to go to SI I think is wrong they should go to SI's, there will be witnesses to what happened and the person who made the restart happen. If the next race they do something like that again then make them start at the back of the pack.

If it happens due to a driver trying to get into his place (making his way from the back into 5th place lets say) then the start procudue should be looked at. Host calling cars off the grid and no other car moving, Pole car goes first drives 500ft up the road and stop, and then 2nd place car goes after being called and lines up behind the pole car and so on. Once all in place hosts calls go and the cars drive round to the grid, keeping about 100ft gap between each car and no brake testing allowed. Max speed 70 mph as they get to the grid it should be radio silence and once all cars are in spot the person at the back says 'In place' then the pole car to say a time 10-15 seconds ahead of the current time, host to repeat the time 2-3 times. Once go then the radio silence is called off and drivers are able to talk to each other to let them know where they are etc if they so wish.

Duke of Bruno wrote:

DTechPR wrote:... to open an inquiry you need prove that this kind of action occurred.
...

The proof is in the restart itself. If there was no incident, we would not need a restart (aside from incorrect lobby settings).

Flyin Mikey J wrote:^ Only problem is that SI's require some sort of replay evidence... hard to get a replay with a quit race/restart.

That is why what happens to cause a restart doesn't get investigated by Stewards.

This I know, but, there are other ways to investigate an incident.

Use a bit of detective work. Without a replay the stewards would be needing to have a nice little chat with those that were involved in the incident. The people that request the restarts and the people that cause the restarts should be able to spare a bit of their own time in the following week(s) to vindicate themselves. This is only fair after making all of the other racers in the lobby take the additional time to restart the race.

The reason why we are not doing this should not be because there is no video evidence. If anything, the reason why we are not doing this should be because of the increased work load on the stewards. And there are ways to deal with increased work loads.

Well, in that case, I can tell you how investigate someone. Also, you are right in some point, but you need evidence to reveal and determine the truth. and therefore is presumed to be true and related to a case. Giving or procuring evidence is the process of using those things that are either (a) presumed to be true, or (b) were in fact proven to be true by earlier evidence (truths) and demonstrates the broadening of the truth (evidence) of a case. In this case, without picture or video, in your investigation just you have 25% of credibility completed.

In my opinion, the restart process is the agreement of our mistakes, no investigation is required when our mistakes are arranged.

Hailfire97x wrote:100% agreed, Mr. Bruno!

Case in point: Darkside and I got into it accidentally in turn 1 a couple races ago, and being impromptu host I had to make that uncomfortable call (which benefited myself) to restart. Only difference was everyone in the lobby said it was fine, because the ensuing bottleneck was unfair to everyone else as well. But I'd have had no problems explaining that to the stewards, so all's fair.

Hailfire,

In that case, I presume that there was involved more than two cars, so if the host make the call to restart, and all competitors accepting his/her call, all competitors are involved in his/her agreement. There are not evidence against of him.

i think i got a little pie on my face last night trying to put together a build for Motegi East. didn't occur to me until after round 6 that i still had 100 lbs to work with to lighten up the Civic Type-R. thought the FWD lowest limit was 2600. lol, oh well. i guess all i can do is laugh that one off.