2013 TORA ISCC questions

Standaman94 wrote:...
Sebring was pretty lonesome for most drivers, albeit a couple of twosomes in each stint.
...

I am under the impression that this is because of Sebring being a team race and qualifying only sorts out the fastest driver on each team. Race stints with different combinations of each teams fastest or slowest driver tends to cause the field to spread with only a small chance of running the same stint against a driver of similar speed.

An "official" poll for the classes may help show community support a bit clearer.

Standaman94 wrote:In an Endurance race you should be racing yourself, not others. At least, not directly. "It's a long race, can't be won in the first lap, etc etc". Although I do agree with some; it can get boring so we might as well crank up the action

Personally, I see 3 classes at the optimum; 4 could work, but there won't be much competition, and I feel as though 2 classes would just be a copy of a TEC stint.

Anyway, we could do a vote to settle it, or leave Louis to have a ponder

agreed in a way. 3 classes optimum. As disportionally fast as I am in R1 vs R3 I do better in LMP1. However I find myself always hot lapping and lapping GT cars. A middle class like PC would give those a chance to lap and be lapped at the same time.

Not saying that I'm pledging myself to PC, it just there are those that feel like that (like myself).

And my opinion on PC vs P2 is that we already use a boat load of P2 cars in P1 as it is. so having another class with nearly stock versions of the same cars in P1 doesn't make sense to me. I'm all for P2 tho if you keep P2 cars out of P1.

Duke of Bruno wrote:

Standaman94 wrote:...
Sebring was pretty lonesome for most drivers, albeit a couple of twosomes in each stint.
...

I am under the impression that this is because of Sebring being a team race and qualifying only sorts out the fastest driver on each team. Race stints with different combinations of each teams fastest or slowest driver tends to cause the field to spread with only a small chance of running the same stint against a driver of similar speed.

An "official" poll for the classes may help show community support a bit clearer.

I'd like to see a poll but one where the driver votes the class they'd run and stick to it. A lot of the people wanting three or four classes are going to jump in a GT car anyhow and only like the idea for some reason. Show the support behind it. TORA had to force people to stop choosing GT cars at Sebring. Why do people propose another class when they don't want to race them?

Ideas without support and participation are generally considered failures

TG Wormburner wrote:I'm not slagging anything off or being a jerk. You attempted to make a point and it was pretty unfounded and ignorant to the third word in the websites name. I am certainly sorry that your unfounded, ignorant post made you defensive and hyper sensitive to someone else's retort.

See now I have obliged you and been a jerk, one that still has a better point than your own. The Online RACING Association.

I didn't directly call you a jerk, I said you're coming off as one. Especially with this comment, calling me hyper sensitive and ignorant, plus bigging yourself up by claiming you have a better point than everyone else; I can ignore this if I wish, as I have done in the past, but I will decide not to.

Everyone's views here are just as "founded" as everyone else's. My, and other's, opinion on a matter does not need to be subjected to being quizzed upon its foundations, or whether you feel it is "ignorant" or not. I have no idea why you think the matter of me thinking that "4 Classes was fun last year" is unfounded and ignorant.

The "Racing" factor is a broad term. Whether or not we are bumper-to-bumper or not, we are still racing. If someone crashes and gets overtaken, that is still racing. In fact, Time Attack or Drifting is considered racing in some respects, although they would be more formally referred to as forms of motorsport. Just because a series doesn't have as much "action" as you'd expect doesn't mean we are going against our own name.

I liked ISCC last year because it was a break from the high-octane fueled excitement in GT and TCC. It was just me and the track, with the addition of other drivers ahead/behind me to keep me focused on my goal.

PS - The above was an opinion, so no need to claim it is false or ignorant.

You responded to Duncan and the +1's and I responded to you yet what you did is allowed and what I did isn't? The red name doesn't give you a different status to interact with the community in front of you.

Just because I am outspoken and have an opinion doesn't mean I shouldn't share it. If anything I welcome others opinions and welcome them even though I may disagree. It is a community and a forum, if no one typed then WTF is it exactly? What is the purpose of this thread at all if no one shares their thoughts and their reasoning behind them? Just because there are disagreements doesn't mean anyone is exactly right or exactly wrong. I've adapted and taken on ideas that I thought would and wouldn't work. If anything my comments about multiple cars and stuff were in jest and joking about to lighten the thread up. Again, you came in and argued with others but when someone comes back it's Katie bar the damn door, Standaman has something to say. That isn't right at all, all I did was respond asking you if you'd watched endurance racing at all.

You made this point.

In an Endurance race you should be racing yourself, not others. At least, not directly. "It's a long race, can't be won in the first lap, etc etc". Although I do agree with some; it can get boring so we might as well crank up the action

and I then responded asking you if you'd watched any endurance racing or heard of any awesome racing where someone basically raced alone forever. Somehow that equated to me being a jerk and slagging off your idea. If anything that is being hyper-sensitive.

Ok, here's my point.

I'm not saying that you're not allowed to post, or I'm always right, or you're always wrong, or however you perceive it as. I know forums are to share ideas and stuff. I understand all that.

What I am saying is that you've been recently coming across as arrogant, at least to me. You've turned a trivial matter into something personal by insulting people's ideas and thoughts. You can argue that I did say you were coming off as a jerk, but my opinion at that time is that that particular comment, the way it was phrased, did. Perhaps we're equal in that respect.

I'm not saying you're wrong, as I fully understand your point, but I'm saying that you should be weary of other's opinions and respect them. Taking on board other's thoughts and adding them to your own is the optimum way of discussion, rather than "You're an idiot, you don't watch ALMS, don't you know anything?" At least, that's how it felt.

Anyway let's put this aside as it's way off topic now. It's likely that this may turn into a poll, depending on Louis' thoughts.

I probably come off as arrogant to some because I somewhat am, we all are to an extent or we wouldn't be here with ideas and competing against other people. I don't think I'm better than anyone here and have always stood up for the everyone should be allowed to participate how they choose idea. I offer tuning, am part of multiple testing groups, and am also a steward. If anything I've made myself open and available to help any and everyone who asked. How in the world is that a level of arrogance that deserves mentioning is beyond me.

I don't simply think this is a trivial matter either. This thread directly relates to the ISCC and how it is going to be looked at for the race format. That is a lot of everyone's time and everyone's effort and shouldn't be passed over as trivial. If we didn't take it serious we wouldn't be here. Trivial is "what song are you listening to" not the situation and purpose of this thread.

wumba you will get to run 04 seeing how 4 is not a reserved number and it is owned by a member currently active. stan p1 would consist of the cars that ran in p1 for sebring, p2 is the porsche , acura, lola honda, lola mazda, and oreca chevrolet. lmpc is just a stock oreca chevrolet

You can be helpful and arrogant at the same time, they're often different things; You can mow everyone's lawns but still stand firmly that video piracy is a good thing.

I meant trivial as in "How many classes do we want?" There'd always have been GT and LMP, it's just a question of defining them and what sub-classes there'd be. I'd see it as trivial, but I suppose that varies for different people. It's not personal, or life-changing, or particularly important. That, for me, makes it trivial.

Also one bad format and one bad series can sour someone on an entire website. Get a new person, a person on the fence and screw it up they probably won't return. They'll also tell anyone that asks how you screwed up. When you balance cars and think of race formats and ideas this needs to be taken into consideration.

This isn't the health of just the ISCC, this is the health of the website and in turn the game itself. Never under estimate the word of mouth.

That is a reason I share my opinions so much and try to take on others. That is why everyone should share their opinion as well and give feedback and have a discussion on the forum. Too many turn to fights over personal feelings to another individual as you've already mentioned. What I say or your feelings towards me shouldn't skew your argument or want to turn a discussion into a fight. That ruins the entire purpose of the thread.

I've raced the ISCC before and I see the GT endurance series right now. I did ISCC in 8 person lobbies on FM3 and the P2 was awful to see and a big complaint. People wanted to race P1 and GT. The P2 class had one or two people in each lobby and sometimes their car control wasn't what it should be with the aggressive driving and precise lines you see taken in the lower lobbies and this created accidents. You can see an example of the same thing in the Sebring race in Lobby One today. I'll use NinjaNitRat as an example. He had never done competitive racing, never done endurance, and he gets thrown to the wolves in lobby one and inevitably caused a few accidents. I can't really fault him for that. The level of racing and the expectations that come with it in the higher lobbies are different. I know I wouldn't want to be a newcomer racing there. As a faster racer I expect a car to be at a certain point behind or in front of me. I know their characteristics and where my opportunities or theirs exist on the track. That goes for faster cars as well. As the skill level drops those expectations and knowledge of the various racecraft do as well, I've been there too.

When you dilute your field you create this on your own. That is why I like two, if we had larger lobbies then three or four as Duncan said. If there was a poll that showed participation and who was going with what and they stuck to it I'd be fine with a P2 class with the participation. It wouldn't bother me but I just don't see it happening for the reasons I mentioned earlier about people being forced out of GT cars at Sebring rather quickly.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway

Three classes will do the job.

LMP1

LMPC

GT

simples.

EDIT: Actually LMPC got a bit meh last year in the ISCC Europe, excluding the last race at Le Mans I think there was only about 5/6 people doing it.

Maybe I should think about things before I post, and endurance is one of those things to think about.

Two classes seems to be the best suggestion really, the worst thing that happened in the ISCC was four classes, only one or two GTEs bless them, then it's just a time trial - blasting around then hopping on live timing to see who finished where.

YES what we have at the moment isn't ideal, everyone accepts that. But surely gotta be racing rather than time trial.

all I agree with Worm if the game could handle 48 players I would love to see 4 classes it doesn't, it supports 14 if you all have a good connection at the best of time.

X2 classes will work fine.

LMP & GTE think about all the traffic from 1 class flashy headlights

Based off of ISCC last year, we had nearly full lobbies and decent mix. For granted, four classes was a bit much but it still worked. Only when drivers started not showing was when the lobbies got thin. But it was still fun.

ISCC should carry 3 classes as you get the mix right. If its two, than we are running a shorter TEC-like series. The variety is much better and you can race the cars in their proper class, like a Honda Lola and Porsche P2 in their p2 class. And Audi r18, AMR-one, Peugeot in P1.

I do believe a poll should be done here soon, so the staff and tester can see what the community wants, cause ultimately that's what matters.

(This is an ISCC thread just got turned into who's opinion matters most, just saying.)

I really didn't mind the small field in PC last year, I really like the stock FLM09 and I've never found anywhere else to race it in the kind of environment and atmosphere TORA offers.

I certainly enjoyed PC more than i did P2 (I did do a few rounds of the US series, though i'm not on the entry or results for some reason)

I appreciate 2x8 is probably the ideal for most, but if in practice you have 2x6 I don't see the harm in having a smaller class in there as well. The other question is if having more classes just spreads people out, or attracts in people who wouldn't otherwise be involved.

IRT Gillard wrote:wumba you will get to run 04 seeing how 4 is not a reserved number and it is owned by a member currently active. stan p1 would consist of the cars that ran in p1 for sebring, p2 is the porsche , acura, lola honda, lola mazda, and oreca chevrolet. lmpc is just a stock oreca chevrolet

Bit surprised with the bolded choices in P2, I don't think anybody will go for the PC car in P2.

If you got the Porsche to work well in P2 than that's awesome!

My thoughts on P2 cars in P1 still stands tho..

CRA Racert wrote:1 - LMP1 and GTE

I said it before but i don't think you should race more than 2 classes. Given the number of players that can enter a lobby, racing with 3 classes or more results in you racing 3 or less other cars and i think most people come here to race and not to hotlap. It is maybe fun when you are in the faster class that you can overtake slower cars but the guys in GTE really only race with other GTE cars.

agreed


I did race a couple of ISCC last season with 4 classes and I had some fun with it ( I raced P1) but 2 classes is, in my opinion, so much better.
More racing with and against each other. 7 LMP and 7 GTor 6, 8 ). Just like TEC Sebring, worked great.