MSA TORA TASCAR Season 4 - Round 1 - Sunset 250 - May 10th 2014

LMR WARSPITE wrote:How many people agree with the Statement provided by Chicane? Not promising We or Mario will make any changes I just want an honest show of hands, if you can provide your own statements to oppose or pursuade feel free, just keep it constructive.

Appreciate you looking into this. I was a part of SPAZCAR for four seasons. Some of the people here may remember or were also a part of it. This was the first stock car series I can remember back in FM3. We did the first two seasons with limited damage with the same results that we just saw. Constant lag spikes and careless damage caused a lot of people to quit the series as it just wasn't fun with all the problems. Ultimately...after the second season of constant trial and error of different settings and formats, SPAZCAR implemented cosmetic damage on ovals and limited the number of safety cars. This was a big improvement to the series and the following two seasons were a much greater success for the series, overall satisfaction of the drivers and saw a far greater number of drivers at the end of the season.

This will be the last point I make on this and I will refrain from commenting on anyone elses responses. I urge you to please, PLEASE, for the sake of all that is mighty, make oval races cosmetic.

Thanks again Warspite.

I would love to be able to use full simulation damage but...it's just not feasible.

It'd make sense for ovals to be cosmetic, we're just far too close together on ovals and it makes Lag completely destructive. For road courses you could absolutely leave it as it is cause we spread out more and are doing less speed

jgroves1996 wrote:It'd make sense for ovals to be cosmetic, we're just far too close together on ovals and it makes Lag completely destructive. For road courses you could absolutely leave it as it is cause we spread out more and are doing less speed

+1

I do agree to an extent

I want to be able to have some damage on ovals, like minor aero, but seeing as it's either no damage or over the top
I'd like to see cosmetic for ovals
I'll get shot for this but I say wait until after Sedona and see how it goes
But if not I'm all for cosmetic on ovals
Still with pit stops though

Cosmetic. I was another driver who could of possibly won but the horrid excuse of a pit lane made me and Jordan wreck each other.

i agree aswell, had to pull out as controller malfunction wrecked my race but that problem could have ruined another persons race

Thanks for the input gentlemen, keep 'em coming. I'll make a decision by the weekend on how to proceed with the remainder of the Oval Track rounds.

Seeing how oval races run in 2 segments, and even into a G-W-C, damage is reset anyways. And then only really affecting the final run to the flag, so it never made sense to me in having damage on the ovals anyways.

Im totally for cosmetic on the ovals with a limit to cautions per oval circuit. Maybe even a pit, even if its a roll through..

As for road courses, the rules don't change so speaking on the oval tracks of the series.

I believe Mark put damage in to create a challenge for the drivers and to think there way though the race not just drive like a a_hole and still have a shot of winning the race overall. We clearly saw a big difference in speed with the top 6 guys and the rest of the field, damage gives these guys a shot of a win or a better result if theres crashes upfront. If lag was never a issue I'd say keep damage but seeing the issues with connections we're best to drop damage for the ovals.

Each way has its pros and cons to he honest

Have to agree with Chicane. Although I was able to capitalise By being a bit tentative in the second part of the race. The true result would have been a bit different without all the Damage. If you decide to change the rules so be it. But Motorsport has risks and luck involved. Shouldn't our Sim racing be the same.  

As real as it gets...



... just sayin'.

If half the accidents we see on ovals were driver error, sure, as real as it gets.

But when its mostly because of lag. Its not as real as it gets, and it really does leave ppl with a bad taste when your having fun and bam, in the wall because the server had a lapse in connection.

Lag is not that different from real life aero effects that T10 missed. There is a minore aero push in game, nothing like what happens in real life.

I mean lag to where cars pass thru each other, sudden lapse in connection making cars collide for one and nothing for the other, cars leaving the pit inside each other, passing opportunities missed because even the computer can't decipher what's up, down, left and right.

Okay everybody, acknowledge that if we say goodbye to damage, we say hello to "SUPER HARDCORE SLAM DRAFTING!" which will result in lack of judgement, more safety cars, and less punishment for "stupid mistakes" for all involved.

As far as lag goes: the way it sits, races go smoothly because we acknowledge lag is an issue. Cars typically get given enough room that lag's never been a major issue.

Want to change it for Sunset? Fine. That'll cause more slam-drafting that will send cars ricocheting (I can assure you, I hold back on bump drafts because I'm afraid to wreck myself). But because we're in "pack racing," I guess it makes sense for lag purposes.

Do NOT change it at any other oval. Indy and Sedona's whole "Point" is to avoid the wall, and get the edge over the guy in front of you going into the corners. If you take away damage, you're going to see people press the issue a lot more than they would normally, because they can get away with it.

Don't get me started on Benchmark C. We already have too many safety cars there because of people pressing the issue. Take away damage, and you are changing it from bad to worse.

Like I said: If you want to change it for Sunset because we're by-definition supposed to be close to each other, that's whatever. The rest of the ovals, though, are no-different than road courses; they actually take moderate skill.

Hailfire97x wrote:Okay everybody, acknowledge that if we say goodbye to damage, we say hello to "SUPER HARDCORE SLAM DRAFTING!" which will result in lack of judgement, more safety cars, and less punishment for "stupid mistakes" for all involved.

As far as lag goes: the way it sits, races go smoothly because we acknowledge lag is an issue. Cars typically get given enough room that lag's never been a major issue.

Want to change it for Sunset? Fine. That'll cause more slam-drafting that will send cars ricocheting (I can assure you, I hold back on bump drafts because I'm afraid to wreck myself). But because we're in "pack racing," I guess it makes sense for lag purposes.

Do NOT change it at any other oval. Indy and Sedona's whole "Point" is to avoid the wall, and get the edge over the guy in front of you going into the corners. If you take away damage, you're going to see people press the issue a lot more than they would normally, because they can get away with it.

Don't get me started on Benchmark C. We already have too many safety cars there because of people pressing the issue. Take away damage, and you are changing it from bad to worse.

Like I said: If you want to change it for Sunset because we're by-definition supposed to be close to each other, that's whatever. The rest of the ovals, though, are no-different than road courses; they actually take moderate skill.

I must say after reading this, I'm more inclined to also suggest Cosmetic damage for Sunset and not the other ovals. (Apart from Benchmark that doesn't have a pitlane.)

Yeah
I think that'd be the best idea

Well see Travis, that's what we are saying you can't assume on. 

There is driving standards, whether damage is on or off, it won't change the way people race. If it does, they are asking for the penalties. 

I would much rather be taken put by a driver who misjudged the real estate over a random lapse in connection. At least I can see the fault and correct it. 

Now you want to say it will be caution festival, limit the cautions. Last year at Sedona, we had some 4-5 cautions per segment, with damage. Then we only allow 5 cautions per segments with cosmetic.

If someone is knocked out of the way, submit an SI. Let the stewards levy penalties. If someone wants to run the wall cuz they can, we have penalties for that too.

If we can't rely on each other to race with respect with cosmetic, how do we trust one another now when Sim damage is applied?

And for the record, every oval race (aside benchmark cuz I wasn't there) had 1-2 yellows resulting from a lag collision of some sort. And even more cars dnf as well.

Take the problems we see out of "computers" hand and put it back into the drivers.

Well, then you're playing with a different "fire," so to speak. I'm not saying you're going to have more "dirty" drivers, but you'll see a lot more people stay in situations they otherwise wouldn't put themselves in. TORA standards punish stupid, aggressive driving, but don't punish a "racing incident." If you take away cosmetic damage, you'll get a lot more "racing incidents" from people who are, for some odd reason, a little bit braver than before.

Taking away/limiting cautions is also a hotbed for butthurt amongst a lot of people, not to mention on some of the shorter tracks it actually could be an issue of track blockage. What happens if there's nowhere to go? I don't know, we ran out of cautions 4 wrecks ago... I could see this being a problem, most notably, at Motegi and Sedona, where laptimes are low and competition is fairly high. Not as much at Benchmark, since it's a fairly wide track.

I don't know, something just doesn't seem...right...about this. I've been taken out by lag in the past myself, particularly I remember a bouncing CRA Adder taking me out at Sedona, and I didn't call for rule changes. I don't think it's a pressing issue, as I've been destroyed far more often on a road race by lag than I do at an oval.

There's Pro's and Con's to both, both sides for and against have actually given very good reasons why their format should be used, however it will be down to the person running the series to make that Call, and whichever it is I hope the Drivers support him for it, as it'll be for the greater-good to why he makes it.

Very good points though everyone, really am impressed.

I get what your saying Travis, but even the format we run is already like using cosmetic damage. 

Any damaged occurred in race one, and laps down gets erased for segment 2 and again in the case of a G-W-C.

And I think we've all been taken out by lag, Duel #2. I was taken out by lag... But for it possibly being the last TASCAR season of n FM4, I would hate to see more people leave than normal. I honestly had the best race on Sunday because of how close the racing was and really felt for the guys that got wrecked because of lag.... Which was nearly half the field.

Then again what about default setting? I thought in that setting cars go ghost in the event of lag and thus reduce lag related issues??

I could get down with that. It is supposed to "guard against" lag issues, as well as keep stopped cars from getting hit. That might have been the thing against the Pit Lane Catastrophe of the last race.

I'm sorry but only having cosmetic damage on one oval is a bad alternative. Makes no sense. All the ovals will have the same problem not just Sunset. That goes completely against the reason for switching to cosmetic damage in the first place.

People have to drive per standards with or without limited damage. Once again for the tenth time...limited or cosmetic damage should have no bearing on how a driver approaches a race. If it does then that driver is looking for trouble and they will find it. To leave limited damage on for this reason is seriously missing the point.

BOTTOM LINE...our oval races and finishing positions are dictated by lag. Not skill but luck. That is dumb. That point right there should be plenty enough for everyone to want to get rid of limited damage on ALL ovals. That statement cannot be argued and those results should not be allowed. Not only that...you hit the wall and get left side damage. The damage physics are terrible and the lag is equally terrible so how are we suppose to have a reqarding race week after week with these handicaps? One more point...even if cosmetic damage is on and you hit the wall and don't get damage...good luck catching up to the drivers who don't hit the wall.

From my count, there are far more people who want to see cosmetic on ovals than not. I honestly can't even wrap my head around people wanting limited damage after how many races have been ruined or cheapened because of lag. Half of the field finished the first race at VM. Now...there's a race to be proud of winning right there. Not only that but in the end...the championship points are bogus and don't actually reflect what the races should have been. Meaning in the end...who cares who wins it. It's not an accurate representation of the drivers, their skills per track or how they would have finished had the unavoidable lag not happened.

VM had cosmetic damage last year, and switched back this year. Why is that?

And I agree with the Default Collisions protecting against lag, especially on pit stops.

My opinion is cosmetic damage, while it does protect against lag, somehow encourages racers to be overagressive. It also takes out tire wear, making pit stops a moot point. And when you turn on cosmetic damage in FM4, it suddenly becomes Turismo fakeness.