Re: TORA Nürburgring 8 Hours - General Discussion

by **CQR Rogue** Sun 9 Dec 2012 - 23:09

SelectiveRogue wrote:Just checked Endurance 2 friends list - SBali97

He was on entry list, He was on LT correct name

by x Gashi x Sun 9 Dec 2012 - 23:12

I think the point has been made Worm. I was simply trying to get some closure to what seemed to me to be a very big mistake that everyone was ignoring.

I am satisfied, I just hope the team that this happenned to is.

by **CQR Rogue** Sun 9 Dec 2012 - 23:15

Defo dude I hope his team understands and I thank those that bought it staff attention as we where not advised of the error cheers all

by TG Wormburner Sun 9 Dec 2012 - 23:27

I was just asking, my PC broke the day before my wheel did so I am on my cell phone. My desktop sucks and is on the other end of the house. It's a bit hard to read page by page.

I also stepped on my Maui Jim sunglasses the day before the PC broke so I was went three days breaking some really expensive stuff. I didn't drive anywhere today and didn't go running. Figured my car and my legs could stay intact.

by **CQR Rogue** Sun 9 Dec 2012 - 23:28

No problem dude Smile

sorry should of made that response better lol Smile

Cheers for feedback dude

by CQR HABURi Mon 10 Dec 2012 - 1:42

F4H Gashi X wrote:

I remember when someone once called me Haribo. lol!

by TMG Sarrazin 8x Mon 10 Dec 2012 - 1:59

I reallllllllly want some Haribo right now, can't wait to get some tomorrow >.<

by Guest Mon 10 Dec 2012 - 9:31

TMG Sarrazin 8x wrote:I reallllllllly want some Haribo right now, can't wait to get some tomorrow >.<

Same, im not a huge fan of sweets and hadn't had Haribo in YEARS!! but now I wan't some Cola bottles Very Happy

by **CQR Aero** Mon 10 Dec 2012 - 14:54

F4H Koenigsegg wrote:
F4H Koenigsegg wrote:I'm confused. How are the miles calculated for Stint 4? I'm asking this because I believe F4H Super Awesome Motorsport should be 3rd in the standigs. We are 4th now.

First 3 stints combined, we were 2 miles behind Team Mello Yello. It was pretty obvious that (almost) everyone will get the same amount of miles in Stint 4, because we had to finish the lap we are on. So the difference between the two teams is still 2 miles. But I (F4H Koenigsegg) finished the last stint 3 minutes and 21 seconds earlier than BG Smithy. I'm pretty sure that is more than a 2 miles difference on track.

Not criticising anyone, just asking for explanation and a look at the results.
Can anyone of the staff reply please?

Hi Koenigsegg

Apologies for not responding sooner. I took yesterday as a "no xbox day" to recover and also show my wife that I hadn't forgotted she exists so didn't see your comment until this morning.

You are quite correct that there was a flaw in the calculation. I can only apologise for not seeing it on Saturday night, but to be fair, I'd either hosted/driven or streamed/commentated for the full race, plus all the last minute prep I did in the morning to make sure things ran as smooth as possible.

The way the results WERE calculated, was distance first, then finish time. So farthest distance wins. Equal distances are ordered by finishing time, smallest (closest to 8h) first.

As you rightly noted though, and I completely missed, this would effectively lock the distances or gaps between cars after Stint 3. So if by the end of Stint 3 you were not on the same mile as the car ahead, you had no chance of passing them, no matter how fast you went in the last stint, as long as they finished.

So the problem then is how do you calculate the distance travelled in a given time?
I have re-worked the the results now and there have been a number of changes. I have checked the changes for "sanity" and to me they seem now to make a lot more sense, so before listing the changes, I will explain the rationale I used to calculate the distances for Stint 4 in this recalculation.

Firstly, any car that did not finish Stint 4 is unaffected. Any mileage covered remains the same.

For cars that finished, I re-ordered the results by time, closest to 8h first. This gave me an "across the line" order, had we all been in one big lobby.

Then I had to calculate the "extra distance" covered. To do this, I took the last car to cross the line and called this "zero". So this car has no ADDITIONAL distance.

For every car above that, I converted both their qualifying lap time, and their finish time into seconds (and thousandths for the Q time).

Using the finish time in seconds, I calculated the gap for each car, ahead of "car zero". e.g. a car finishing a minute ahead of "car zero" - the last across the line, has a gap of 60 secs.

1 lap is 12.9 miles. To work out "portions of a lap" I divided 12.9 by each car's Q time.

The last step was to multiply the "portion of a lap" by the "gap time" to give the distance covered in that "gap time".

(Sorry this is complicated!!!)

What this means then, is that cars that finished fastest, travelled a distance, relative to their qualifying time, further than those that finished minutes later.
I understand that it's a convoluted way of calculating it, but it's as "scientific" and "fair" as I can make it.

Here is a table showing my workings for those it makes any sense to:

The adjusted results re-sorted into "true" finshing order:

Affected positions:

Once again I can only apologise for not catching this sooner. Comiserations to those it bumps down. Congratulations to those it bumps up.

by BalmierPie671 Mon 10 Dec 2012 - 15:37

Is it possible to get the results in word file or excel file? If so could you send it to me in a pm?

Thanks!

Once again, hats off for a fantastic event!

by FRH Crazyman Tue 11 Dec 2012 - 13:47

Dear TORA Management,
Dear Richy59,
As the leader and owner of Forza Racing Hungary, I’d like to put a point to the end of what happened last Saturday with our teammate Sbali and I’d like to avoid any further guessings. In the last two days we talked over the situation inside our Club and we calm down…
We were so glad and happy that we’ve found the TORA, and we’ve found your races as a great opportunity to check our knowledge and suitability in international online racing. We are the biggest hungarian Forza community, and we organised and served a lot of online races in the last 3 years, with fewer competitors by the way. Your online races are great, and I know that you have lots of things to do organising those races.
BUT…
Assuming that you know, that being part of any races (these or anything else) needs a big preparation. Building the car, setting the tuning, making the best setup and last but not least lots of hours of testdriving. I have all my respect to those persons (racers), whom entering any competitions doing their preparation for these endurance races.
The story from our aspect:
SBali didn’t get any massages, invitations for Stint2 altough he was online for hours.
19:30 - WCM Outlaw called SBali to private chat and SBali asked HawkStorne (another FRH racer) to help him in translating. So WCM Outlaw told (twice) to HawkStorne, that it was probably a human mistake, because he sent the invitation to another guy with almost the same gamertag, but they recognised it and he has to talk with the stewards or staff to discuss it, because SBali can complete later in Stint4. At this moment HawkStorne asked him, is that means that SBali can complete in Stint4 with our fourth driver Akos, trying to avoid any misunderstandings. The answer was: yes.
21:05 - WCM Outlaw called HawkStorne to private chat and he said that there are two hungarians in the 4th lobby (Akos and SBali) and HawkStorne(?) has to decide, that which driver will quit, because only one driver can complete in Stint4…
At this point HawkStorne told him that it’s not a solvation for the problem and he talked about not the same thing earlier. He didn’t respond at first, but he said that he hasn’t got any more time to discuss it because he has to go to continue his work (I can appreciate only the last words). The last sentece was that HawkStorne (again?) has to decide which FRH driver will complete Stint4 and which driver not and HawkStorne has to inform our drivers immediately and one of them must quit also immediately! HawkStorne asked him for a plus 1 minute to talk to Akos and SBali about TORA’s new position on this question but he didn’t wait just left the chat.
You can imagine, it was a very thankless role after this conversation to call SBali and tell him the point of view („…sorry Bali but you can’t complete in Stint4 because of TORA’s decision…”) If I were in his shoes, probably I’d get huge assessment of damages (e.g. TV or controller).
Every rules and regulations was observed by the racers of Forza Racing Hungary (SBali completed also the qualifying procedure and there wasn’t any problems wit the spelling of his gamertag and in my opinion he was on the „list” of MSA TORA TEC 2) and our racers had a long 2weeks preparation for this endurance race. The hungarian Forza fans and other teammates also helped them during the preaparation (public and collective testdrivings and so on) and they also watched them on TORA Live during the race.
After the race I had got so many mails and calls, that why have the FRH Team 3 have fewer miles than the other teams? I feeled myself inconveniently all about this, but I had not any informations at that time.
After the race we (or just SBali) didn’t get any messages, indications from TORA that you’re sorry or something else… Due to our comments we got only a partial answer from you Richy59 (I’ve to tell you that you were very helpful any time as I got acquainted you from former races) after 1 day on TORA forum (I also see by now on your forum Outlaw’s apology for the misunderstanding).
TORA just posted the results after the race but nothing happened with our problem, so FRH Team 3 had to put in the trash their whole race and the straining preaparation. I think it is a JOKE on an international level!
Personally at this time we terminate our involvement on TORA races but possibly some day we’ll continue to be a part of your races, if we can see that you have more positive attitude on us because we had also problems earlier on TORA races (e.g. clerical errors on datas, warnings not to talk hungarian, etc.). We always remarked it but we’re not in a tantrum, because if you work hard you cannot always be right. But it’s a shame to give the cut directly… it’s enough for us.
I know that some dudes will be laughing during reading my letter and they should say: so what, they aren’t coming, who cares… But we took this opportunity seriously because we are a small country and as I mentioned in the first lines, we were so glad to complete races on international (worldwide) levels wit the best/quickest racers of the World.

With all my best wishes,
Yours sincerely,
FRH Crazyman

by **CQR Rogue** Tue 11 Dec 2012 - 14:11

FRH Crazyman right like I said before staff had not been made aware of the issue, we do apologise but like I said before the lobby host made a mistake Live timing and The entry list the TORA gamertags had the correct gamertag so once more we can only apologise on behalf of the community member who was hosting for not getting him in.

Me, Chris & Simon where lobby hosting and racing Saturday so contacting us during the race would of been extremely difficult.

After the race no-one had contacted any of us direct, if you had contacted Richy he was still recovering from an illness.

So yes I would like apologise but at no point did anyone bring any of the above the staff attention after race in PM or direct on xbox live.

If you want to contact Matt or Richy direct then please do but it was a mistake made by a community member hosting a lobby out of his own time to help the rest of the community.

If I was to look at every other gaming leagues out there mistakes happen but we do listen and will take steps to ensure it does not happen any more.

TORA STAFF made no decision regarding stint 4 let me make this absolute clear, why because know 1 had bought this to our staff attention.

Leaving the endurance series is the last thing we would like to see but as you can see by my previous posts at no point staff had spoken to any 1 regarding the above why because at no point staff were told during or straight after the race, so posting the results was a N/A moment in the situation which happened with your driver, once more I only can apologise on behalf of the community but this issue was human error something of which happens all the time but more stringent process will be implemented to make sure it does not happen.

by BalmierPie671 Tue 11 Dec 2012 - 14:54

Dear Forza Hungary Drivers, please reconsider your position.

It’s evident that you have the skills to participate competitively in the TORA events and I don’t think there are that many other places to go to get this level of organization and races.

I fully understand the disappointment after all your preparations. I would have been devastated myself. But I can only imagine the amount of preparation, work and pressure for the TORA staff to get such a massive race as this to happen.

This was a mistake, a human error, that sometimes happens. Of course, maybe TORA could have been earlier in posting an apology, but now the apology has been posted.

The same goes for the result list. The amount of work that must have been put down to present that amount of information and get it right with the limited amount of information that the game provides must have been massive.

Hats of, instead, to the staff at TORA for making these events happen!

And remember, it’s just a game. Although I guess I take it too seriously from time to time, myself... Smile

by **CQR Aero** Tue 11 Dec 2012 - 15:01

Hi Crazyman.

I completely sympathise with SBali's disappointment and upset, as I would be equally upset if the same had happened to me.

As SelectiveRogue has stated above, the "senior" TORA staff that were online during the event (myself, CMGraphix, and SelectiveRogue) were all hosting at one point or another, and since there were delays in some lobbies and not others, there were very few, if any, moments where we were contactable, because of the overlapping schedule (for example if lobby A was on time, and lobby B was 15 minutes late, then lobby A and B never "rest" between stints at the same time).

Our lobby hosts, whilst they are well prepared and supported, are under a high amount of pressure on race nights, and particularly during events such as this one. There is a lot for them to manage (not least some terrible connection issues), and at the same time a "schedule" that they are trying to keep to.

In this situation, WCM Outlaw was forced to make "executive decisions on the fly", and I think that perhaps at least in small part, the language barrier added a little to the confusion.

From what I can see, and assume from your post above, knowing WCM Outlaw, is that the mistake was made in sending an invite to a wrong gamertag for stint 2, then during the party chat, he said that "yes" it would be OK for SBali to drive in Stint 4. BUT. If this were me, and I assume this is the same for Outlaw, he would have expected that what was meant by this was that SBali would drive the car, and nobody else, in Stint 4.

In effect every team has ONE car, therefore you can only have ONE driver (per stint). There would never have been an occasion that 2 drivers from one team could drive in the same stint, and I think there was a misunderstanding on your team's end about this.

It is very unfortunate that he was unable to race, but sometimes, things happen that are beyond our control (such as lobby connections failing - talk to SilvrSteeD, who turned up for every stint, but could not connect to ANY lobby, no matter how hard we tried to get him in). We always try to make the best of the situation that is in front of us, and can only apologise when this leaves someone feeling unhappy.

I hope to see you, and SBali on the circuit in the near future.

Regards

Chris

by **CQR Aero** Tue 11 Dec 2012 - 15:07

PS - Sorry, you felt that you were not responded to "fast enough".

Speaking personally; immediately after posting the results on Saturday night, I went to bed. Then I took Sunday for personal time and didn't touch the forum, or my xbox (I've spent weeks leading up to the event tied to this stuff so I deserved a break!).
We are now on Tuesday, the second day after my return, and I spent most of yesterday trying to sort out issues with the results (still ongoing), so please forgive at least me for not responding "as fast as you would like" (aka immediately). I'm sure I can speak for all the staff in saying that queries are taken seriously and answered as soon as possible, but that also, we are all people with "real lives", jobs and other things that mean we are not tied to a PC, watching the forum waiting to respond to people's messages.

by Racert46 Tue 11 Dec 2012 - 15:10

To Forza Racing Hungary,

Don't let this human mistake stop you from racing at TORA.
We like to see your teams compete in 2013.

Have a great holiday and think about it.

Racert46

by **Ax4x Cowboy** Tue 11 Dec 2012 - 16:24

Like connection dropouts, human error cannot be accounted for. Whoever it happens to, without doubt, is going to feel disappointed but there's nothing you can do about it, especially given how chaotic things seemed with the staff being a man down and the lobbys being all out of sync.

Whatever happens, it's in the past. If you have enjoyed the racing then please continue racing but if you want to take some time out then that is also your choice.

by Ax4x Chaddy Tue 11 Dec 2012 - 16:32

If I could just add something, Hawkstorne and his team were down to race in lobby B but It got changed sometime between 11am and the start of the race. I invited hawkstorne into the B lobby at 3.30GMT (for stint 2 of the race) as I had written down the drivers before 11am. At 3.40GMT I thought Id look at the LT and I noticed he was go longer in lobby B and had been moved. So I Invited him to a Private Chat And explained that his team HAD been down to race in my lobby and it was my mistake to invite him as he had be changed to another lobby. I told him to look out for a invite from Simon as FRH was down for his lobby.

by **CQR Rogue** Tue 11 Dec 2012 - 18:11

Chaddy 11am was 3 hours before race so it could of changed why? Because teams pulled out a few hours before the event?

Most racing clubs dont confirm there grids until 30 min start the race

by RumbleBee 392 Tue 11 Dec 2012 - 18:35

me and mark were confirmed host for A lobby, the night/day before. And we were the last car starting on the grid...

by CRA Project182R Thu 13 Dec 2012 - 16:07

FRH Crazyman wrote:Dear TORA Management,
Dear Richy59,
As the leader and owner of Forza Racing Hungary, I’d like to put a point to the end of what happened last Saturday with our teammate Sbali and I’d like to avoid any further guessings. In the last two days we talked over the situation inside our Club and we calm down…
We were so glad and happy that we’ve found the TORA, and we’ve found your races as a great opportunity to check our knowledge and suitability in international online racing. We are the biggest hungarian Forza community, and we organised and served a lot of online races in the last 3 years, with fewer competitors by the way. Your online races are great, and I know that you have lots of things to do organising those races.
BUT…
Assuming that you know, that being part of any races (these or anything else) needs a big preparation. Building the car, setting the tuning, making the best setup and last but not least lots of hours of testdriving. I have all my respect to those persons (racers), whom entering any competitions doing their preparation for these endurance races.
The story from our aspect:
SBali didn’t get any massages, invitations for Stint2 altough he was online for hours.
19:30 - WCM Outlaw called SBali to private chat and SBali asked HawkStorne (another FRH racer) to help him in translating. So WCM Outlaw told (twice) to HawkStorne, that it was probably a human mistake, because he sent the invitation to another guy with almost the same gamertag, but they recognised it and he has to talk with the stewards or staff to discuss it, because SBali can complete later in Stint4. At this moment HawkStorne asked him, is that means that SBali can complete in Stint4 with our fourth driver Akos, trying to avoid any misunderstandings. The answer was: yes.
21:05 - WCM Outlaw called HawkStorne to private chat and he said that there are two hungarians in the 4th lobby (Akos and SBali) and HawkStorne(?) has to decide, that which driver will quit, because only one driver can complete in Stint4…
At this point HawkStorne told him that it’s not a solvation for the problem and he talked about not the same thing earlier. He didn’t respond at first, but he said that he hasn’t got any more time to discuss it because he has to go to continue his work (I can appreciate only the last words). The last sentece was that HawkStorne (again?) has to decide which FRH driver will complete Stint4 and which driver not and HawkStorne has to inform our drivers immediately and one of them must quit also immediately! HawkStorne asked him for a plus 1 minute to talk to Akos and SBali about TORA’s new position on this question but he didn’t wait just left the chat.
You can imagine, it was a very thankless role after this conversation to call SBali and tell him the point of view („…sorry Bali but you can’t complete in Stint4 because of TORA’s decision…”) If I were in his shoes, probably I’d get huge assessment of damages (e.g. TV or controller).
Every rules and regulations was observed by the racers of Forza Racing Hungary (SBali completed also the qualifying procedure and there wasn’t any problems wit the spelling of his gamertag and in my opinion he was on the „list” of MSA TORA TEC 2) and our racers had a long 2weeks preparation for this endurance race. The hungarian Forza fans and other teammates also helped them during the preaparation (public and collective testdrivings and so on) and they also watched them on TORA Live during the race.
After the race I had got so many mails and calls, that why have the FRH Team 3 have fewer miles than the other teams? I feeled myself inconveniently all about this, but I had not any informations at that time.
After the race we (or just SBali) didn’t get any messages, indications from TORA that you’re sorry or something else… Due to our comments we got only a partial answer from you Richy59 (I’ve to tell you that you were very helpful any time as I got acquainted you from former races) after 1 day on TORA forum (I also see by now on your forum Outlaw’s apology for the misunderstanding).
TORA just posted the results after the race but nothing happened with our problem, so FRH Team 3 had to put in the trash their whole race and the straining preaparation. I think it is a JOKE on an international level!
Personally at this time we terminate our involvement on TORA races but possibly some day we’ll continue to be a part of your races, if we can see that you have more positive attitude on us because we had also problems earlier on TORA races (e.g. clerical errors on datas, warnings not to talk hungarian, etc.). We always remarked it but we’re not in a tantrum, because if you work hard you cannot always be right. But it’s a shame to give the cut directly… it’s enough for us.
I know that some dudes will be laughing during reading my letter and they should say: so what, they aren’t coming, who cares… But we took this opportunity seriously because we are a small country and as I mentioned in the first lines, we were so glad to complete races on international (worldwide) levels wit the best/quickest racers of the World.

With all my best wishes,
Yours sincerely,
FRH Crazyman

Please re-consider your decision to withdraw from TORA events, I personally think you're a fantastic team and would be sad to no longer see you on the grid. I've really enjoyed racing with you and think you will regret your decision, I understand your frustrations but I think leaving TORA is the wrong decision for you guys.

by CRA Project182R Thu 13 Dec 2012 - 16:12

FRH Crazyman - Also lets be honest, there is nothing else out there that even comes close to what TORA do, NOTHING. You would be punishing yourselves by withdrawing.

by Hailfire97x Sat 15 Dec 2012 - 19:12

Hear hear. You guys are proper direct combination to my team when it comes to TEC events, and are fun competition as such.

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