MSA TORA GT Season 11 - General Discussion

That is the hammer and the nail coming together drivers really don't care now about putting SI cause yes some standards are great and since returning after a six month break standards have actually dropped
Do what you may after this cause I'm with the majority of the top and respected racers we really don't care anymore, times have changed, for some of you that are blinkered don't see it but there is a lot out there that can see it and don't express there opinion

You and Mopar speak for the few, not for the Majority, you may feel like the standards have dropped or every race is dirty but that is far from true, I have been involved in crashes just like many, it happens, but I wouldn't say that is continuous and represents everything and everyone.

You both have your opinions and are free to express them, but just know neither of you are aware of every detail covered from the highest perspective, Wingnut you yourself should know this, helping out this last round and being a past CT member you should know the difficulties faced each day and the impossibility of keeping every single person satisfied in decision making.

BG Smithy wrote:1 SI submitted from the race weekend, sounds like very dirty racing indeed, or maybe everyone takes mopar's attitude to SI's and doesn't submit them because they "don't care".

People shouldn't be afraid to submit SI's as often people don't realise that they are in the wrong and will continue to make the same mistakes.

SI process is long & clunky, personally I see it as a waste of time, particularly after I was blatantly punted off by Johnnyboy360 on the last lap of a GT race a couple of years ago. I know it's an isolated incident but it made me reluctant to bother with any more. In my opinion SI's need to be dealt with within 4 days, or before the next race at the very latest.

^ They are, and you're using an example of a few years ago, the stewards, process and the guidelines have all been changed since then.

SI's take less than 5 mins to submit

You think SI's are a waste of time because you got hit once? I don't understand

Yes I know the difficulties and yes I rise above it and take the challenges ahead but let see where is the rest
What some don't realise if I didn't take it onboard last night who was going to oh yeah NO-ONE
My opinions are yes very strong and yes can be very harsh at times but that's me I say it as it is
I had to make a few harsh decisions last night aswell just to try keep it running as smooth as I can and not run on too late
And again would like thank those who raced and hosted for being patient and not bombarding myself with messages lol

I aswell as others have already appraised you for helping and making sure it ran, trust me if I had access to a console i'd had been on but it fell on someone else to.

I did the same with N12, Staff were unable to come online many for personal reasons that cannot be altered, so I know how you feel about it, but don't speak like you are the only one who would do it, you had the ability to help and you did, I applaud you for it, that's the Spirit we both share.

Now read your last two comments, you said how you think standards have dropped with regards to the racing and then go on to say you took it upon yourself to make sure people were able to race?

Drivers DO care, you said you don't but this gesture proves otherwise.

LMR WARSPITE wrote:^ They are, and you're using an example of a few years ago, the stewards, process and the guidelines have all been changed since then.

BG Smithy wrote:SI's take less than 5 mins to submit

You think SI's are a waste of time because you got hit once? I don't understand

One bad experience can leave a sour taste in the mouth. What if a new driver was in that race (from Worms replay) and was taken out at the start? He could just think "what a waste of time", leave & then tell others about his negative experience.

Yes, an SI only takes 5 minutes to submit, but they take a while to be dealt with. I mean there was one that was open for over 3 weeks & the series actually finished before it was sorted. I don't know, maybe it's changed since then, as I don't keep abreast of all SIs submitted & when they were dealt with.

No SI should be filed and I didn't move over. Your car pushes right and the more I looked at it the more it looked like you got side draft and your car slightly scooted over or mine did. I never moved in cockpit. Regardless, I see no one at fault at all, I took the brunt of the accident, and the safety car is a complete joke. It was no ones fault whatsoever that was in that lobby. Mopar got a bad start because he couldn't hear the start called. The pole sitter was new and didn't know the procedure and neither did the rest of us. Is it calling go? Is it calling 3,2,1? Is it calling a time? What was it? If someone had been present to explain then some of that would have been avoided. If the cars were balanced properly the rest would have.

Aero seems to be taking it on himself but his child needs him. If staff only has him running a series that is awful organization. Staff made the race schedule. Easter doesn't exactly sneak up on you and neither did the WEC event.

You then have the game excuses but absolutely nothing aside from how you invite people has changed! That is frustrating but the new game garbage is exactly that...garbage. If you can't balance cars now then you couldn't then. The teams sharing builds never worked because there were too many slow people without the knowledge of faster ones skewing results because they get 100% out if what they do know and 70% of the cars they don't. That interference is maddening to someone that does know what's going on.

Yes it can and having such an incident but not reporting it means it never gets looked at and they can repeat the incident again, whether intended or not.

SI's tend to take time because its getting multiple views on someones standards of driving, you cannot rush to conclusions and risk giving the wrong driver a n unfair punishment or not at all, some do take longer than expected and shouldn't but we do our best to get them looked at, we as Staff cannot intervene unless absoloutly necessary, but we do try to give a push if we feel it can be dealt with quicker.

I have been a steward here before, I know how it works. There is absolutely no point in filing one because there is no one at fault. It is a complete waste of their time. Anyone with a brain can watch that incident from 33 different angles and say it is no ones fault besides whomever balanced the cars. If they can get penalized then I think one should be filed

    

  

LMR WARSPITE wrote:Can you give me specific dates or seasons?

i.e TORA GT Season 10 or,
April 2012.

I can't recall seeing you participate in anything outside of TEC and that was early last year, this being the first, if you have experienced incidents then for this reason alone you can see this doesn't represent the racing here as a whole.

The ones I mentioned are from the last couple of races in the last production gt series (season 8?, the one Plow Run Wide won) and the first race of the season after that. Happened to be my last race in any GT series at TORA. Which is also the reason I have stuck to TEC, I don't get wrecked, just disconnected...  

I thought FM5 with production cars would be fun and since the previous seasons looked like they went ok. Didn't work out that way though.

BG Smithy wrote:SI's take less than 5 mins to submit

You think SI's are a waste of time because you got hit once? I don't understand

I was not just referring to my time as I was considering the people who actually look over it......


SI's are a waste because they don't change anything,  on any racing site. I have filled them out here for almost the same exact situation and nothing came of it, just like this one would.

You make it sound like I just started racing here....I've been racing here since Forza 3.

I'm done with this now. I have said my peace and will go away. This is turning into a waste of time, just like racing here.

Best of luck in the future. 

Sorry Worm, the point I was trying to make was no-one intentionally moved over. I'm not going to lie but I thought you had, going by what I saw on my screen, but you were just to the edge of the track. I was just replying to the post where someone said I double pit manoeuvred even though I didn't.
But yeah, no-ones at fault, no hard feelings mate, racing incident , it happens.

I am not bothered at all Daniel.

TG Wormburner wrote:I have been a steward here before, I know how it works. There is absolutely no point in filing one because there is no one at fault. It is a complete waste of their time. Anyone with a brain can watch that incident from 33 different angles and say it is no ones fault besides whomever balanced the cars. If they can get penalized then I think one should be filed
 

I have no experience in any FM5 duties but i'll make sure the car balancing is brought up with the other Staff if something is wrong, I promise you.

As for no one being at fault for the incident... how can this reflect TORA's standard of driving or the Stewarding team who help uphold it? If it is true and its just another accident then the least that can be done is to warn drivers about giving enough room within the tracks boundaries so it doesn't happen again, however considering the race continued (which it shouldn't) and people lost out it would be worth filing an SI anyway, if not to look at drivers actions then to see how it happened and if another process should be taken.

As for MOPAR thank you for the information, but again I believe you've jumped straight to a single mind-set to relate one race that just happened to one than happened a LONG time ago, I'm sorry you feel this way truely am, and if you leave that is your choice, everyone has their days where they want to give it all up, walk away and never turn back even for the slightest reasons (iv done it) but I wouldn't always say it was the truth, best of luck to you bud, you're a decent driver and a modest rival so do hope to see you on track somewhere again.

I never said anything about the stewards, that seems to have been brought on by members of the forum not present at the race. How can you give room, the GT-R is 15mph faster than everything else.

No one knew procedure, no one knew anything, Wingnut was scrambling his tail off to get things going last minute. It was a complete cock up from the word go and that never would have happened if cars were properly balanced and staff was present or at least things more organized to get us all where we needed to be and going.

Can we all do it on our own? Sure we can, but when we don't expect to and you're in a scramble and everything is a mess it takes you time to get settled. I showed up to race and that was all, I ended up worrying and waiting more than racing. That is a reflection on the series organizers. Someone other than a father whose child had heart surgery two weeks prior should have taken responsibility for the day. It's commendable on him that he even gave an excuse and explained as I see no reason he should feel obligated to do so. If no one else could we should have been told the race was delayed a week.

On another note Aero, I really hope your kid starts doing well and makes a full recovery. My thoughts go out to you.


No one is saying staff sucks, just that people feel let down by multiple things that staff has control over. We all know how tough doing all this is. Move on, get better, and stop making excuses. Excuses just breed more problems.


  

In all honesty I believed someone was handling the evening for this event, I knew Chris would be away and will be for some time but since the Staff have done a sort of "split" in series management (but the forums being a group effort) I was not aware there wouldn't be someone around, for that I am truely sorry.

I am guessing the main reason would be Easter and as far as I'm aware... every Staff who have access to a XB1 console would either be working or with Family, if I knew no one would be able to make it then maybe I should have made the call to delay the race a week till someone could.

People are right there were issues from the ground up and there is no individual blame, many avoidable and some unavoidable issues all piled up making it a struggle just to get the race going.


Tell ya what why don't we leave it at peace for tonight, wait until the Staff who usually run these races return and you can consult them directly, Aero is away so one of these few would be Duncan (SelectiveRogue) and if he is able to then Richy (Richy59).


Apologies to all participants who have been affected by this, we do hope to get it resolved for the next round and urge anyone who is able to help out via hosting ect to come forward.

Night all, and thank you.
Chris.

I'm not horribly upset Warspite, just explaining is all. As you said, a culmination of things that happened. Time for stock hatch

On a brighter note:

I'm happy to help host a qualification/race lobby. I'm there if I'm needed guys, obviously for FM5 only!. I'm not exactly new to hosting, I have many years experience so I wouldn't need the usual run through of everything. I used to run my own series.

If ya can't beat em, join em

P.s I'll 2nd Worms comment: I wish your Baby all the best Aero

I remember that Motegi race. Mopar, Ash (Carrera) and myself got taken out in the first turn by a 1st turn dive bomber on no restart. Lolz

I see where Mopar is coming from, if your in lobby 1, your hoping the people there know what they're doing and sort of expect driving standards to be top notch since it is the people who qualified the fastest and usually the same people in lobby 1 every week.

I've watched it from the reverse angle and if your take into account what Worm mentioned earlier about not knowing what the proper start procedure was and not being able to hear the call out. Looked to be a bit of an accordion effect and that's why the cars got all bottled up.

I've never really had much issue with driving standards here but I'm really shocked by some of the dismissive and passive attitude of certain staff members on the lack of organization, as long as I have been here that has always been an issue especially when Aero is not around.

Here's my opinion on some of the issues facing TORA currently and what's been "Discussed" here

The Game - Forza Motorsport 5:
Personally I do not think the game is ready for organized league racing due to the lower car and track count than Forza Motorsport 4. Yes the Production GT Series and Spec Series seem like good fits, but how are you going to go about ISCC. There are not nearly enough prototypes and there are no PC Cars. (although I say take the open cockpit Audi LMP1 and allow rebadging and put a 15-20% Power Handicap on it.) Also TCC is going to have almost HALF the car list once it is moved over to Forza 5.
We face a time with the game where schedules aren't going to see much variation from the previous season. Yeah some tracks have multiple layouts but most are not good or big enough for Production GT or ISCC so I see GT Season 12 having a similar schedule to GT S11. You can also apply that to the Car list seeing as Turn 10 has not given us enough "RACE" cars IMO. Plus taking out half or more of the favorite R3-R1 Class Series Cars. (GT 500/300, DTM, LMP2, LMPC, Etc. etc.) That forced the Staff to Consider Production GT which for the tuner makes you have to really know what your doing and makes you tune your car more than you would have to with a Race Spec Car like the BMW M3 GT2.
Personally Turn 10 Put a sour taste in my mouth with the low track and car count on the game and not letting us have out vinyl's from FM4 (they did it when Forza went from the OG Xbox to the Xbox 360 so why not the 360 to the XB1. I call laziness on T10's part) Other than that the graphics are sick, there is Indy Car and Formula 1 (past and present) and still some great race cars and street cars on the game. Will I be doing FM5 Series at TORA. Not right away, but I will eventually.

The Racing and Steward Inquiries:
Personally I think the racing here is at a much higher standard than what it is at other sites. I have only had 2 incidents where I have gotten punted, forced off, or wrecked at the hands of another competitor. The reason I didn't file SI's is because I am one who wont file them, but will pay you out if you race me dirty, regardless of penalty. Although I probably should learn to file SI's instead of seeking revenge.

To summarize I think TORA is doing all they can at the Moment. Yes FM5 and FM4 have torn a line between the community and I fear that when PCars comes out it might Tear this community apart. I don't want to see that happen. Matt I think that you are doing the best job that you can, yeah I don't agree with the move to FM5 at the current moment, but I'm not going to whine and moan about it. I just have to accept that some series I want to run wont be on FM4 anymore.

I support TORA and I would recommend it to anyone who is tired of the Wreckers in Public Lobbies or leagues where the racing isn't fun or competitive. Right now I will continue to support TORA and see things as a Glass Half Full kind of guy until the day comes that I can no longer do neither.

There I have said my piece and I hope that I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

CQR Deuce wrote:I've watched it from the reverse angle and if your take into account what Worm mentioned earlier about not knowing what the proper start procedure was and not being able to hear the call out. Looked to be a bit of an accordion effect and that's why the cars got all bottled up.

I've never really had much issue with driving standards here but I'm really shocked by some of the dismissive and passive attitude of certain staff members on the lack of organization, as long as I have been here that has always been an issue especially when Aero is not around.

I hope the second part is not directed at me, keep in mind I was not made aware the race was at risk until AFTER it had finished as FM5 events are not where I am usually needed, my role here tonight was merely to consult and answer the concerns of drivers so they know they were being listened to, and to do my best to advise, investigate or resolve these concerns accordingly best I could, as for the Organisation these series are usually organised very well, Main issue tonight being no Staff or CT's around to take charge, this is rarely the case but I will look into why no other Staff were made available or warned the evening would need assistance.

Trust me the effects of this evening are being discussed so no one is being "dismissive", I will do my best to get my hands on a Console and copy of FM5 for next round as an Emergency, I am hoping this is not neccessary.

^ Update to above:

I am currently looking through the relevant threads for answers to this incident, it seems there was a Warning to state the reserve organisor (SelectiveRogue) would be away till Tuesday and other Staff posted to the Marshall threads to request assistance to which no one offered, here is a quote from the most recent post:

Richy59 wrote:Might be worth considering cancelling tonight and delaying the round for 2 weeks and just moving the championship back a bit.

If there are people available for hosting then that would be amazing, really not sure what state the live timing is in and such. I can't check as I'm not at home and don't think I will be tonight.

This comes under what we have discussed numerously, we need help with the lobby hosting as we cannot chase after people everytime and urge people who are capable to apply, however I too am at blame, if I had come on around this time and seen this post I would have made the call to cancel.