MSA TORA Daytona 24H - General Discussion

Luckily, MMOW-Samsung is doubling its efforts for sebring, so there will be enough cars

The disqualification of certain teams on minimal evidence is one of the most bush-league things I've ever seen.

Also, the "make it up as we go" effort towards the 85% rule dropped on race day is ALSO one of the most bush-league things I've ever seen.

Then, guys like HCR Solar -ing his way through serious matters is insulting towards anyone who is ACTUALLY affected in this manner, when in reality his dumb ass shouldn't have been near the discussion as he didn't have a dog in the fight nor did he have any credible evidence to support his claim other than hearsay. It was one thing to have Technologic put his 2 cents in (not only did he have first-hand knowledge of the incident, but was also affected by similar actions), but to have "I don't belong here but I'm going to set off a firework in the thread" Solar blast his nonsense with a condescending attitude is ridiculously amateurish.

Not to mention Deftone. Dear, sweet Deftone. He quit in no small part to this [Censored]. Didn't we learn anything from Simon Biggs? You take something that someone's poured so much into and you [Censored] on it. You [Censored] all over it.



Anyways, back to the penalty. If Overdrive simply missed the entrance due to a brain fart or otherwise, that's one thing. You couldn't go backwards, end-of. However, since he was in an incident and had a damaged car, he SHOULD have been allowed to reverse to the pit lane, especially if the gap in question was around 30 feet.
What's my evidence to this?
Look at any North American racing sport that takes place on a circuit without a pit wall between the pit lane and the frontstraight. Generally, if you miss what is called a "commitment cone" or "commitment line" and rejoin the track, you get a pass-through penalty or something similar--unless the circumstance is caused by an incident. If you get involved in an incident, and your car stops on the grass but within range of your pit stop, you are fully allowed to cross onto the pit lane and enter your pit box / garage space. It's not only not unprecedented, but it's fairly common. TO say "it'd be HIGHLY UNREALISTIC TO DO THIS!" is entirely false.

Matter of fact, the only thing that makes this "unrealistic" is the fact that there's even a wall on the pit straight at Daytona.

Do you see a wall?



No? How about here?



No? Then, that's highly unrealistic.

That's fine. I JUST got back to looking at this thread after sleeping most all of Sunday and Monday, and its come to my attention that some serious (crap) went down. 1 involving my car (a demotion to 5th) over the semi-mysterious 85% rule that I had no knowledge of going into Saturday, and the other involving two relatively small-team LMP cars and a remarkably uncommon issue that is said could have "caused" a safety issue in an effort to prevent safety issues. I get the "gotta penalize both if you penalize one" angle, but I think neither was an immensely serious infraction given the facility and precedent

I move that the "missing the pits by small margin" incidents be chalked up to what would be akin to a 1-lap penalty, or roughly 5 miles. That is slightly worse than a commitment cone violation in real life (which would be at-least a pass-through penalty, at-worst a stop-and-hold-30 penalty). It satisfies the need to penalize someone, but also acknowledges that the incidents were caused in the name of safety and were both caused by the unrealistic fact that virtual Daytona has a pit wall, where the real life version does not.

Hailfire97x wrote:That's fine. I JUST got back to looking at this thread after sleeping most all of Sunday and Monday, and its come to my attention that some serious (crap) went down. 1 involving my car (a demotion to 5th) over the semi-mysterious 85% rule that I had no knowledge of going into Saturday, and the other involving two relatively small-team LMP cars and a remarkably uncommon issue that is said could have "caused" a safety issue in an effort to prevent safety issues. I get the "gotta penalize both if you penalize one" angle, but I think neither was an immensely serious infraction given the facility and precedent

I move that the "missing the pits by small margin" incidents be chalked up to what would be akin to a 1-lap penalty, or roughly 5 miles. That is slightly worse than a commitment cone violation in real life (which would be at-least a pass-through penalty, at-worst a stop-and-hold-30 penalty). It satisfies the need to penalize someone, but also acknowledges that the incidents were caused in the name of safety and were both caused by the unrealistic fact that virtual Daytona has a pit wall, where the real life version does not.

"This is REAL Racing"

The ball is on your port.

...anyways...

Just to emphasize the safety aspect, I drew up a diagram over a map of the circuit:



From experience with cars running out of fuel, I found it extremely dangerous to come up on a near-stationary vehicle in the red and purple corners; difference between the two is it was far worse to come up on a car in a narrow, blind corner than anywhere else. I'd much rather a car be near-stationary (or reversing) out-of-harm's-way on the inside of the tri-oval, since it is incredibly unlikely the vehicle would pose a threat there.
I also drew up where I figured to be the first hole in the pit wall for vehicles to turn into, should logic be anything beyond that being too far to simply cut onto the pit lane without receiving a harsher penalty. In that case, sure, that's really excessive and would be dangerous to personnel on the pit lane.

My point remains: A full DQ for the stint--especially when other teams who didn't even show up were given 85% distance--is not only harsh, but it's ridiculously harsh.

You should really leave this and move on.

In the very last stint, I had quite a big accident while lapping another GT car just before the pits, an LMP car was also involved. I could of easily used the grass to turn around and enter the pits....but i didn't. I thought it was common sense to drive my battered car round for another lap staying out of the way (this is not hard or hazardous), than to turn around and start driving the wrong way.
Although you might think it's quite safe to turn around in the game because of how wide the track is, there is still people entering the pits at a very high speed. Nobody wants a pile up entering the pits because someone was driving the wrong way.

Amarth wrote:You should really leave this and move on.

In the very last stint, I had quite a big accident while lapping another GT car just before the pits, an LMP car was also involved. I could of easily used the grass to turn around and enter the pits....but i didn't. I thought it was common sense to drive my battered car round for another lap staying out of the way (this is not hard or hazardous), than to turn around and start driving the wrong way.
Although you might think it's quite safe to turn around in the game because of how wide the track is, there is still people entering the pits at a very high speed. Nobody wants a pile up entering the pits because someone was driving the wrong way.

If you hit a car going into the pits, your car is damaged for .003 seconds before Forza corrects your vehicle and you enter your pit box. In other Forzas, the aero damage would be severe, but in this case, your entire vehicle would be repaired on-the-spot.

enough already this is getting old very fast and quite frankly hailfire if you truly believe that you were harshly penalised then i suggest you pm on of the staff rather than rant about for everyone to see.also they use the full pit exit not the one that brings you out onto turn one but into the run up to turn 2.

You see, Vampira, if I rant to people in PMs it gets washed away never to be heard from again. If I put it in a general discussion area (since this is where we discuss things generally) its a lot harder to do that.

And I didn't get on until last night, only to see what type of (crap)storm had brewed in the 24 hours I stayed away from all things Forza.

Prototypes need to pass GT cars SAFELY. I had a black and yellow prototype try and pass me in the middle of the chicane in turn 2. That is not the place to pass, SAFELY. I heard the same type of incident happening from other drives in the stint. The best part, prototype drivers were in a separate chat. I'm not trying to start anything, just saying that prototyps are faster so they are obligated to find a way to pass the to cars SAFELY, not wreck them in a one car lane chicane. This is coming from someone that usually will try to hold his line while a faster car is passing.

i had a similar situation Tyrannic. i was starting to turn in for the high speed kink Turn 4, and hello, LMP. we ended up making contact, but me and my BMW had an off before turn 5.... The GT cars cannot simply get off the driving line so easily. a very few number of LMP drivers may want to relax a little, and be a little more patient.

Gents, attacking people isn't going to help anyone's case. You all should be pleased by the fact I have absolutely no powers or staff/department/other commitments here, or 'head on a platter' would be a thing now, based on the fallout of the race.

Many of us will have had something that pissed us off during the race. Even we weren't immune to being called out and having flames directed at us. I can only praise the names called out in these latter posts, they sacrificed a lot to make the event work. Unfortunately, things not working the way they were designed to happens frequently. Look at McLaren's dog turd season in F1 most recently.

It's nigh on impossible for my team to celebrate anything because of all this. There were some virtual handshakes and some "Good job lads," passed around, for going the distance I suppose.

If you're going to vent, it's most certainly best to do it on PMs to the appropriate person. They *will* listen. TORA *do* care.

Hailfire97x wrote:

Amarth wrote:You should really leave this and move on.

In the very last stint, I had quite a big accident while lapping another GT car just before the pits, an LMP car was also involved. I could of easily used the grass to turn around and enter the pits....but i didn't. I thought it was common sense to drive my battered car round for another lap staying out of the way (this is not hard or hazardous), than to turn around and start driving the wrong way.
Although you might think it's quite safe to turn around in the game because of how wide the track is, there is still people entering the pits at a very high speed. Nobody wants a pile up entering the pits because someone was driving the wrong way.

If you hit a car going into the pits, your car is damaged for .003 seconds before Forza corrects your vehicle and you enter your pit box. In other Forzas, the aero damage would be severe, but in this case, your entire vehicle would be repaired on-the-spot.

Your completely missing the point......

If a small group fly into the pits while having battle, they don't want to go smashing into a car driving the wrong way. It could cause cars to go all over the place so don't try and justify it.

If he were to pull in front of a group of cars, it could then be treated like an unsafe reentry.

Also, what's the precedent for penalizing someone who's driving backwards? Probation? Warning? DQ? I couldn't tell you, there's no sporting regulations anywhere to be found. Maybe TLR and GripTek got off easy--maybe it's a lifetime ban!

I refer to my earliest point on the topic--it's an arbitrary penalty formed on the basis of one person's opinion.

I'm done with the matter on this thread, though, unless I get replied to directly. If anyone relevant to the discussion wants to carry it out in PMs, go ahead.

I think the real issue has been lost. The discussion should not be weather the actions were wrong. They were that doesn't need to be argued. The problem is the overreaction by the stewards. The penalty is way bigger than it should have been. As others have already suggested it should only have been a 1 lap penalty which is much more fitting for what happened

TyrannicCymbals wrote:Prototypes need to pass GT cars SAFELY.  I had a black and yellow prototype try and pass me in the middle of the chicane in turn 2.  That is not the place to pass, SAFELY.  I heard the same type of incident happening from other drives in the stint.  The best part, prototype drivers were in a separate chat.  I'm not trying to start anything, just saying that prototyps are faster so they are obligated to find a way to pass the to cars SAFELY, not wreck them in a one car lane chicane.  This is coming from someone that usually will try to hold his line while a faster car is passing.

You're right.

By the same token, I had multiple GT cars push me high on the oval and pinch me into the barrier. I had GT drivers pinch me right into the barrier a few times while leading because I was passing them high side. I am not sure why the GT driver felt obligated to try give me the inside. GT cars have right of way. We must find a way around. Anything outside of this causes accidents.

Anyway, onwards and upwards. I think anymore concerns should be relayed offline to the stewards and staff.

I echo what Chris says. There were a couple of GT drivers in the lobby we were in together that made me defecate myself. So many times I'd have a line and then they'd snap in front of me, or try to 'do me a favour' by staying off line when I was setting myself up to pass off line.

I'm sure if I used the heat map above, every section for this one driver, every section would have skulls and crossbones on it.

Awareness is key for GT, you can't drive like we're not there.

And please, don't immediately snap behind an LMP to catch 50 yards of a draft

I think it was clear that there were people in both classes that hadn't done multi-class racing before.

Got side swiped by a LMP1 coming out of a corner. All he had to do to avoid it was a quick mirror check to the right. Luckily It happened on the infield so I wasn't pushed into a wall.

Hailfire97x wrote:Also, what's the precedent for penalizing someone who's driving backwards? Probation? Warning? DQ?

Common sense should say don't do it at all because it's dangerous and downright stupid, as a result cases would be handled on a case-by-case basis to determine the appropriate penalty. Sporting regulations, if there were any broad TORA sporting regs, shouldn't need to say "don't drive backwards on the circuit" because it's common sense not to. But this is why rulebooks that should only be 10 pages long end up being 100, because every little detail needs to be covered and every loophole needs to be closed.

Scav3nger wrote:

Hailfire97x wrote:Also, what's the precedent for penalizing someone who's driving backwards? Probation? Warning? DQ?

Common sense should say don't do it at all because it's dangerous and downright stupid, as a result cases would be handled on a case-by-case basis to determine the appropriate penalty.

And in this case, is the appropriate penalty "Disqualification"? Doesn't that seem a little harsh, when every other penalty handed out was 10,000ft?

Hailfire97x wrote:You see, Vampira, if I rant to people in PMs it gets washed away never to be heard from again. If I put it in a general discussion area (since this is where we discuss things generally) its a lot harder to do that.

And I didn't get on until last night, only to see what type of (crap)storm had brewed in the 24 hours I stayed away from all things Forza.

Your 100% right... best way to get people to listen is to make a lot of noise.

Hailfire97x wrote:

Scav3nger wrote:

Hailfire97x wrote:Also, what's the precedent for penalizing someone who's driving backwards? Probation? Warning? DQ?

Common sense should say don't do it at all because it's dangerous and downright stupid, as a result cases would be handled on a case-by-case basis to determine the appropriate penalty.

And in this case, is the appropriate penalty "Disqualification"? Doesn't that seem a little harsh, when every other penalty handed out was 10,000ft?

I'm not arguing for or against the DQ and how it compares to other penalties, it's not my place to say whether it's the right decision or not. I'm saying that nobody should be arguing for driving backwards under any circumstances, on or off the circuit, real or virtual. Do you honestly think if someone missed a pit stop in a real event and turned around and purposefully drove backwards to go into the pits they'd ever be allowed to race again?

Scav3nger wrote:

Hailfire97x wrote:

Scav3nger wrote:

Hailfire97x wrote:Also, what's the precedent for penalizing someone who's driving backwards? Probation? Warning? DQ?

Common sense should say don't do it at all because it's dangerous and downright stupid, as a result cases would be handled on a case-by-case basis to determine the appropriate penalty.

And in this case, is the appropriate penalty "Disqualification"? Doesn't that seem a little harsh, when every other penalty handed out was 10,000ft?

I'm not arguing for or against the DQ and how it compares to other penalties, it's not my place to say whether it's the right decision or not. I'm saying that nobody should be arguing for driving backwards under any circumstances, on or off the circuit, real or virtual. Do you honestly think if someone missed a pit stop in a real event and turned around and purposefully drove backwards to go into the pits they'd ever be allowed to race again?

I get that... I screwed. I even explained how it happened but nobody seems to listen. I would accept a milage penalty, but a DQ is overboard. Plus, they didn't even withdraw milage from the right stint... TORA barely knew what happened and carried through with the penalty from words of people who didn't have anything to do with the race. REGARDLESS... my team and Griptek were penalized even before evidence was revealed and we were not notified. 10 Hours after the event has finished... I call team/clan BS.

Scav3nger wrote:Do you honestly think if someone missed a pit stop in a real event and turned around and purposefully drove backwards to go into the pits they'd ever be allowed to race again?

Of course not. Chances are good that there'd be 21 engineers screaming in their ear to pit, and if you ignore all of that, you're an idiot.