TORA MSA GT Meeting 8 - Road Atlanta (21st Oct)

FranchittiFan wrote:that lag was caused by Modafaya Dunc, I had no where to go.

On my screen its caused by ATR Dan lol

SelectiveRogue wrote:im sorry but dont moan to simon about 16 player lobbies, 16 players have worked well recent race events though going by chaddy pic some lag

Then there is still the case:

If you can't join due to networkproblems ( or other problems) you can't go a lobby down because it is full.
If you had raced 4x 12 then you could have gone a lobby lower( only when you were in D you couldn't join).

Bli33ard wrote:

And that was the end of my race already in lap 1 race 2 B lobby, 100% damaged on all parts, i just saw a purple Ferrari going straight throug me and the next tihing i know i am standing next to the road.

There was some serious lagging going on last night, and its a shame that it caused so much problems.

Better luck next time i hope.

CRA Adder wrote:

SelectiveRogue wrote:im sorry but dont moan to simon about 16 player lobbies, 16 players have worked well recent race events though going by chaddy pic some lag

Then there is still the case:

If you can't join due to networkproblems ( or other problems) you can't go a lobby down because it is full.
If you had raced 4x 12 then you could have gone a lobby lower( only when you were in D you couldn't join).

The 16 player thing was an attempt to see if Forza could do it finally, and the answer was, YES! I don't think it had been tried since all these update, but if it allows 16 people why not do it. The aim was to get all 16 into Lobby a, then lobby b and if it worked then we'd go for 16. Everyone managed to get in there with not a hint of issues at all.

SelectiveRogue wrote:

BG Beanz wrote:Tell me about it, i'm heading up to turn two minding my own business, then BAM, out of nowhere two cars are on their noses and i have nowhere to go... carnage ensues!

It seems to be certain people repeatedly lagging, although not always consistently throughout the whole race...

Can you PM me who please

I'll check the replay tonight and let you know what happened from my POV. It all happened so fast i didn't know WTF was going on to tell the truth!

CMGraphix wrote:

CRA Adder wrote:

SelectiveRogue wrote:im sorry but dont moan to simon about 16 player lobbies, 16 players have worked well recent race events though going by chaddy pic some lag

Then there is still the case:

If you can't join due to networkproblems ( or other problems) you can't go a lobby down because it is full.
If you had raced 4x 12 then you could have gone a lobby lower( only when you were in D you couldn't join).

The 16 player thing was an attempt to see if Forza could do it finally, and the answer was, YES! I don't think it had been tried since all these update, but if it allows 16 people why not do it. The aim was to get all 16 into Lobby a, then lobby b and if it worked then we'd go for 16. Everyone managed to get in there with not a hint of issues at all.

If you did it like that, that should be working fine, so perfect!
But.....( sorry I am Dutch, always complaining and debating... ) it took also a bit of time to get a person ( bloody cain or crisis nine, cant remember)into the lobby so the ending of the races was late( in Europe )

BTW: when will the time in GB put back 1 hour?
Here in Europe is it upcoming weekend.

Its this upcoming weekend for UK too.

BloodyCaiN, ah yes.... BloodyCaiN. I invited him, and after 5 mins invited him again and he sent me a voice message saying "I'm just doing some practice laps", so I replied that we are all in there waiting for him, and he then joined instantly.

sorry to go away from the previous conversation, but is BST going back to GMT? and what day? saturday or sunday?

It will be GMT Sunday morning for us. So basically ISCC will be an hour later for those not changing times

ok cool, so if there was to be a UK based race on saturday morning, it wont be affected?

exactly right. Weird time to change time, 2am BST Sunday is when the clocks go back, so we live out 1am to 2am twice.

WHY 2AM?!

Because that is when the London Underground trains stop running.

Just because you can get 16 people into a lobby fine doesn't mean it was a success, it was proved in lobby A last night that going over 12 increases the lag problem significantly during the actual racing.

Chaddy got lag-bombed by a car ahead which had an upload speed too slow for 16 players... and 5 innocent cars behind get destroyed as a result. So was a completely pointless evening for me unfortunately.

Our broadband here is long overdue for an update so I'll try and see if we can sort my end out. Just noticed that my current provider Sky also do fibre optic broadband, so it might be cheaper just to upgrade it rather than switch providers.

Can I say a big thanks to BG Hainsey for making sure he got me into Q1. Really appreciate that so thanks very much. Came online at 19.59 due to some issues at home and just made it in.

And also thanks to Simon for helping Grafter with setting up the lobbies, as it turned out I was ok to get the results in the end after all.

And thanks to Grafter who hosted his first ever lobby and did a decent job of it.

CMGraphix wrote:The 16 player thing was an attempt to see if Forza could do it finally, and the answer was, YES! I don't think it had been tried since all these update, but if it allows 16 people why not do it. The aim was to get all 16 into Lobby a, then lobby b and if it worked then we'd go for 16. Everyone managed to get in there with not a hint of issues at all.

Surely you cannot ignore the possible correlation between a 16 player lobby and one of the most spectacular and devastating lag crashes ever seen?

The fact remains that 5 people suffered race ending damage and while I'll admit it is difficult to say exactly what caused the increased lag issues, it seems a little premature to say that the 16 player lobbies were successful.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand the desire to fill lobbies with 16 players, more players usually means more fun, but isn't there an argument to look at this objectively and say '16 player lobbies are unpredictable and therefore unsustainable?'.

where do i file a race complaint/report i need to report a driver

@ CQR Magic, what is a good upload speed in your opinion?

I am running at +/- 50mb download, 3mb upload and a ping of 4. It is a wired conection to the router and when i game there is no other computer running in the house. my xbox is in a DMZ.

I have never seen so many problems with lag as yesterday.

Maybe it had something to do with the 16 player lobbies, maybe it has something to do with slow internet connections or just having people from all over the world in the lobby makes it unstable.... I don't know.

For me and Ian the race was over after 4 turns....

I had rather been in C lobby with 12 drivers and have a proper race then this lag issue in B lobby with 16 drivers.

Yup my car did a flip, with a lag crash very frustration to not even have a safety car. I am going to have a chat with the staff as a restart would have been ideal as it wasn't anyones fault directly.

Don't see the issue with 16 players myself, it was individual connections and it would have happened with 8 players.

But he'll my race was wrecked yet you don't hear me whining like everyone else, if people would do what we ask to fix their connections TORA would be a better place!!

Well next round we will not have 16 player lobbies to see what the difference is.

16 player lobbies have worked in the past, and I believe that Silverstone, even Le Mans 24 hours ran close to, or on 16 people in the lobby without issue, but we'll see.

In my opinion, whether it was 12 or 16 people in the lobby, the lag would've been exsactly the same, though a higher concentration of people racing meant it was more likely that lag caused issue. Less numbers may help

Racert46 wrote:@ CQR Magic, what is a good upload speed in your opinion?

I am running at +/- 50mb download, 3mb upload and a ping of 4.

I have never seen so many problems with lag as yesterday.

From my own racing with CQR, a good rule of thumb for lag-free Forza gameplay is to allow 0.05Mb upload per car, so:

A 0.4Mbit (400kbit) upload will handle around 8 cars without any lag
A 0.6Mbit (600kbit) - 12 cars
A 0.8Mbit (800kbit) - 16 cars

So your 3Mb upload is excellent! The lag you were seeing was almost certainly due to the upload speed of another player in the lobby - they're connection wasn't fast enough to send the data out to every other player in the lobby such as yourself. The more players you add, the more data has to be sent (Forza is peer-to-peer remember), so all game position data, timing data and voice chat has to be transmitted to each person in the lobby. The more players you add, the more interconnections there are:

4 players is 3^2 (9 connections)
8 players is 7^2 (49 connections)
12 players is 11^2 (121 connections)
16 players is 15^2 (225 connections)

The huge lag crashes are caused by saturation - this is when the upload is fully maxed out (100%) and can't transmit any more data, causing a massive spike (high ping rate) as no control data can be transmitted due to lack of bandwidth. It takes a second or so to recover from this, in the mean time cars have lagged 150ft backwards and forwards, causing carnage. Forza 4 doesn't handle it very well - it should detect if a car becomes stationary and immediately ghost the car which would avoid a lot of lag crashes (Forza 2 was far superior in this regard).

Most UK ADSL connections are 384kbit (typical for Sky broadband), 512kbit or 768kbit upload speed, so 12+ lobbies will inevitably have lag until people have faster uploads (most fibre connections are 2Mbit plus upload, which would theoretically support 40 players if the game could handle it!).

Thank you for making this more clear.

Oh, and just want to add that lag is no-one's 'fault' - it's a limitation of the technology we all have to use. Understanding why it happens and minimising the chances is the best way to resolve issues. I used to have a 1.5Mb download and 384kbit upload and even 8 player races were difficult sometimes, the difference with 40Mb download and 7.5Mb upload is huge!

As richy will agree xbox 360 is 7 years old, its net code needs a mass overhaul, I race and continue to race on rfactor with races around green hell featuring 100 drivers plus and no lag why? because the net code is better.

the next xbox will have a better net code however please can some 1 send me all the drivers that were lagging just like real worlds issues such as engine failures we have lag failures lol