TORA MSA GT Meeting 8 - Road Atlanta (21st Oct)

SelectiveRogue wrote:Right messages passed onto Simon to look into, Staff will respond we do like constructive criticism so please feel free to construct and advise so we can drive CI in our race series.

Sincerely appreciated Rogue

SelectiveRogue wrote:Right messages passed onto Simon to look into, Staff will respond we do like constructive criticism so please feel free to construct and advise so we can drive CI in our race series.

CQR Cobblepop wrote:

BloodYCaiN wrote:Really wish the races were longer. My replay was only 21 mintues long. Why are we not maximizing the length of races based on replay times? These races are too short. The second race if anytrhing should be longer than the first to give the reverse grid drivers the chance to catch the leaders. I've now seen two straight weeks where a driver finishes last in the first race and cruises to a win in the second. Something not right there.

This is a really good point which should not be buried. There is an apparent flaw in the rules when people are able to manipulate their points scoring potential by finishing the first race in last place (intentionally) thus maximising their scoring potential in the second race by starting at the front. The surprising thing is that this can be alleviated by increasing the length of the second race...

Before anybody jumps on the 'It's to give everyone a fair chance of winning' argument, I point you in the direction of the mid-lobby runners who slog it out for menial points whilst any individual who employs the above tactic would walk away better off by finishing last and first...


8th & 9th = 311 points

1st & 16th = 330 points

I regularly find myself finishing in the midfield of A-lobby and so this is becoming of great interest to me. I'd be really intrigued to hear what the staff think of this, all the while remembering that this is not a criticism, merely an inquiry.

First of all, Superpole does not always ensure the fastest are at the front as it is only 1 lap and anything can happen and as for anyone intentionally starting at the back of the grid to have a better chance of winning the 2nd race, I don't think this really happens, this is backed by the fact that in A lobby alone the person who has started last in the first race has only gone on to win the race twice in the 2nd race.
It was put to a poll at the start of the season and the majority voted this system, and if we had a poll about it again at the start of next season I think exactly the same thing would happen, because it makes for better racing. Look to SNR Andy's win at Road America where he started from 11th on the grid and won, it's possible.

Possible...yes. Highly unlikely...yes. I think most would prefer a more likely possibility to win the second race not just watch the first 3 cruise to a podium finish. We're not necessarily saying every person that qualifies last in superpole is trying to beat the system. What we ARE saying is that the way it is currently setup, people beat the system unknowingly. I think if you read the previous posts closely you will understand where we are coming from. I disagree that after all is said and done and all points have been made that people would still choose an all out reverse grid for next season. Mathematically it doesnt add up Wumba.

BloodYCaiN wrote:Possible...yes. Highly unlikely...yes. I think most would prefer a more likely possibility to win the second race not just watch the first 3 cruise to a podium finish. We're not necessarily saying every person that qualifies last in superpole is trying to beat the system. What we ARE saying is that the way it is currently setup, people beat the system unknowingly. I think if you read the previous posts closely you will understand where we are coming from. I disagree that after all is said and done and all points have been made that people would still choose an all out reverse grid for next season. Mathematically it doesnt add up Wumba.

I have read the posts, and like I said before, it does not matter if it's highly unlikely (This depends on how fast you are) the fact remains that it's possible and has already happened, which is what matters. I qualified last in Superpole on Sunday, not because I was sandbagging or 'unknowingly' trying to beat the system, but because I dirtied my lap, I then made up 4 places, which meant I did not start from the front row for the second race, I had to overtake people to win, and I noticed a lot of the front runners from the first race ending up in some of the top positions even though there was a huge unfortunate lag issue. The current system works fine, if your a good enough driver you will catch the people starting at the front for the second race as they will be battling each other, it all comes down to driver skill and that's how it should be.

BG Wumba wrote:First of all, Superpole does not always ensure the fastest are at the front as it is only 1 lap and anything can happen and as for anyone intentionally starting at the back of the grid to have a better chance of winning the 2nd race, I don't think this really happens, this is backed by the fact that in A lobby alone the person who has started last in the first race has only gone on to win the race twice in the 2nd race.
It was put to a poll at the start of the season and the majority voted this system, and if we had a poll about it again at the start of next season I think exactly the same thing would happen, because it makes for better racing. Look to SNR Andy's win at Road America where he started from 11th on the grid and won, it's possible.

Ok, the word 'intent' would seem to be more pivotal than I intended. If we take away the intent, the fundamental point still remains. Whether it be intentional or unintentional there is an inherent flaw in rewarding inconsistency over consistency. That is not to say that the reversal of the lobby is a bad idea, it isn't, it's just that the current system seems a little imbalanced at the moment.

I think it works just fine as it is, take someone like Vtectorque who can win the first race and invariably ends up on the podium for the second race. He's going to score a lot more points than someone sandbagging the first race and winning the second and that is how it should be, the best drivers rise to the top.

BG Wumba wrote:

BloodYCaiN wrote:Possible...yes. Highly unlikely...yes. I think most would prefer a more likely possibility to win the second race not just watch the first 3 cruise to a podium finish. We're not necessarily saying every person that qualifies last in superpole is trying to beat the system. What we ARE saying is that the way it is currently setup, people beat the system unknowingly. I think if you read the previous posts closely you will understand where we are coming from. I disagree that after all is said and done and all points have been made that people would still choose an all out reverse grid for next season. Mathematically it doesnt add up Wumba.

I have read the posts, and like I said before, it does not matter if it's highly unlikely (This depends on how fast you are) the fact remains that it's possible and has already happened, which is what matters. I qualified last in Superpole on Sunday, not because I was sandbagging or 'unknowingly' trying to beat the system, but because I dirtied my lap, I then made up 4 places, which meant I did not start from the front row for the second race, I had to overtake people to win, and I noticed a lot of the front runners from the first race ending up in some of the top positions even though there was a huge unfortunate lag issue. The current system works fine, if your a good enough driver you will catch the people starting at the front for the second race as they will be battling each other, it all comes down to driver skill and that's how it should be.

Sorry but I totally disagree...if you think that having one of the faster drivers in a room dirtying his superpole then starting last, moving up a few positions then starting at the front for the second race having to overtake slower drivers and cruising to a win is "fair" then your definition and my definition of fair is totally opposite. We have many top 100 drivers (based on the true drivers test...spec hot laps) and a few of the fastest drivers in the world on this site that have never done what you seem to think should happen regularly. The devil is in the details and if you looked as close to finishing positions and points as I have you would think differently. It's not about what's possible...its about what makes sense. 700 yard par 5's are possible to birdie but not likely and the reason they are few and far between even in professional events. If you win superpole followed by winning the first race you should have ample amount of time to be able to claim your rightful position or atleast fight for it. Telling me that one or two people have done it over a ton of events is nowhere near the percentage of what it should be. It should be more common to have a huge battle between fasters drivers coming through the field and slower drivers that started first trying to hold off the faster drivers at the end. This just RARELY happens making the second race finale kind of lame in the front. Watch the TORA TV replays and tell me who is highlighted in the second races generally....3rd thru 6th because thats typically where the faster drivers end up without a shot at the win. This isn't coming from a crap driver. My highest positions gained in one series race is 13 and quite a few 8-10's. I'm rarely damaged and drive my ass off. I'm not discussing this because I suck at this game and need an edge. I'm discussing this because when you truly look at the numbers they just don't add up. Sure...the system does work as it is but it can definetly be improved.

Oh hi everyone, guess I should jump in as series organiser and let you know that I am reading all these replies, I do have to say that I see some very familiar faces who like to put their 2 cents into thinking they have a better idea, but thats not to say I'm not listening. I am, and have a few plans.

One thing is for certain though, reverse grids as they are will not change. The community had the chance (and did) for voting for the second race order, and a majority voted for a reverse grid. This was a ruleset and premise that was fully available to go through in the rulebook and people entering the series based on the rulebook, and for something you all voted for.

Fact is, whatever place the reverse began from, it always left a chance for someone to sandbag and get a race 2 advantage, and whatever place the reverse began from, the person right in the middle would ALWAYS lose out. If it was top 7, and the order reversed and finished the same race 2, the person finishing 4th and 4th would be worse off.

To change any of these rules at this late stage of the season could have a dramatic effect on the series, of which people signed up to take part in back in July. There is a big prize at stake, and if changing the rules makes a big effect and changes an outcome of how the season started then it really wouldn't be fair, and rather unprofessional. My advice would be to take the rules as they are, and use them to your advantage where you see fit. I will say though, that if on replay, obvious sandbagging does take place then penalties will be dished out if reported and found guilty of.

HOWEVER...

BloodYCaiN (yes I'm listening) does have a point, and one I will action. Race lengths are meant to be 20-25 minutes in length, and earlier in the season I have been making this closer to 20 mins due to finding it tricky to have the time for TORA TV. TORA TV (only for now) is out of the window as I really have not the time these days, and therefore it is not important for the race lengths to be that short, so they will be increased to be as close to 25 minutes as it can be. This can mean 2-3 more laps a race!

I am currently brainstorming for next season, of which I have a thread called 2013 GT News or something like that. I am reading your thoughts, do stick them down, but please bear in mind that not everyone will agree, and some things will not happen that are suggested. I try to please the majority though.

Thanks for reading.



P.S By the way, the reverse grid, and race time decisions, are just that, decisions. Full stop.

Can I ask you a question Graphix...why do we not use our original qualifying times to order the grid in the race rooms? Can you please explain to me quickly the reasons behind superpole so I can better understand it?

Honestly...I'll be satisfied just having the races lengthened. After all, my initial post was to point out that the races neded to be a bit longer. Two or three additional laps can make a huge difference in finishing positions and in the past would have potentially given me enough time to catch the front drivers. Thanks!

The point behind superpole (which wasn't my naming, I just called it Q2) was that Q1 would allow drivers to get into the lobbies they deserve. Q2 is so that they may not necessarily be in the correct place for race 1, meaning battles through the field on both races, and not a relatively boring singlefile race for race 1.

Basically, to try and shake things up a little and race 1

Got it! The premise behind superpole makes sense and I agree with it. It's the dirty lap issue that I believe hurts the idea. Damn dirty laps!

Thanks for the explanation.

Graftersroom wrote:

LMR Scuderia wrote:
The incident on turn 1 was that of me going on the inside and CRA Morphader turning completely in on me and causing me to spin out and then you and a few other cars collected me.. The lag you saw may have been my connection acting up with yours because im in the US? but i usually have perfect connection with other drivers no matter what country they are in. The point is I want you to check the accident from my point of view because I started dead even with Morphader and had the inside line and he just turned in on me.. Don't know if it was lag or just a badly calculated move. All I know is it ruined both of our races

Mate, I saw no lag issue from you, it was the guy who ended up 1st in Race 1 who had the Space Hopper Porsche. I've watched your incident and you get your nose chopped off into the first corner. There was nothing you could do. Morph probably could've given you a bit more room, but he took the racing line.

I actually don't blame anyone for what happened, certainly not you mate. You were sideways when we the hit happened, I can hardly blame you for not getting out of the way. Getting lapped by the entire field was a bit downgrading though.

Sorry guys for the accident that I caused with LMR ..

I was paying too much attention to the cars in front of me and I kinda forgot that there was a car next to me..

At least it was not my intention to hit you LMR, I should have givin you more space for the corner..

Cheers all for getting back to me, please can any 1 send me who showed "lag" on their screens, not if you saw all drivers lagging as you would be the driver lagging.

CQR Rusty wrote: look at CQR Magic, sorry to say this, but he ballsed up his super pole lap and Qualified 13th! Now some drivers would go, meh, screw it, ill drop to 16th in the race to bag an easy pole and take an easy win! Buut he didnt! He fought his way ( cleanly may i add ) from 13th all the way up to 5th!

Thanks Rusty, very kind of you to say I was going for pole, had a chance to take the fight to the Ferrari's here, but overdid it at turn 5 and almost spun! Made for an interesting first race anyway

Pleased to hear the races will now be run closer to 25 minutes, as per the regulations - the races have been far too short recently, Road Atlanta's 13 racing laps was just 18 minutes of racing. Makes it very hard to make any real progress, it can take 2 or 3 laps to find a way past just one car that is being driven well, defending it's line etc. Also, I think the shortness of the races has contributed to some of the incidents throughout the season - especially at the starts where there's a pressure to make up places. But extending it to ~25 minutes will help, and go some way to addressing the issues raised regarding points and reverse grids.

And thanks to the staff for taking peoples' comments on-board

Can I ask about my re-start idea for any big lag crashes? Could it be used?

Again, I can't make changes this season due to the ruleset placed out of which people signed upto at the start of the seaon, however, yes I have got a plan in place from this idea for next season.

CRA Morphader wrote:

Graftersroom wrote:

LMR Scuderia wrote:
The incident on turn 1 was that of me going on the inside and CRA Morphader turning completely in on me and causing me to spin out and then you and a few other cars collected me.. The lag you saw may have been my connection acting up with yours because im in the US? but i usually have perfect connection with other drivers no matter what country they are in. The point is I want you to check the accident from my point of view because I started dead even with Morphader and had the inside line and he just turned in on me.. Don't know if it was lag or just a badly calculated move. All I know is it ruined both of our races

Mate, I saw no lag issue from you, it was the guy who ended up 1st in Race 1 who had the Space Hopper Porsche. I've watched your incident and you get your nose chopped off into the first corner. There was nothing you could do. Morph probably could've given you a bit more room, but he took the racing line.

I actually don't blame anyone for what happened, certainly not you mate. You were sideways when we the hit happened, I can hardly blame you for not getting out of the way. Getting lapped by the entire field was a bit downgrading though.

Sorry guys for the accident that I caused with LMR ..

I was paying too much attention to the cars in front of me and I kinda forgot that there was a car next to me..

At least it was not my intention to hit you LMR, I should have givin you more space for the corner..

ahem what about that shunt u gave my car on turn 9-10 huh?

CRA Morphader wrote:

Graftersroom wrote:

LMR Scuderia wrote:
The incident on turn 1 was that of me going on the inside and CRA Morphader turning completely in on me and causing me to spin out and then you and a few other cars collected me.. The lag you saw may have been my connection acting up with yours because im in the US? but i usually have perfect connection with other drivers no matter what country they are in. The point is I want you to check the accident from my point of view because I started dead even with Morphader and had the inside line and he just turned in on me.. Don't know if it was lag or just a badly calculated move. All I know is it ruined both of our races

Mate, I saw no lag issue from you, it was the guy who ended up 1st in Race 1 who had the Space Hopper Porsche. I've watched your incident and you get your nose chopped off into the first corner. There was nothing you could do. Morph probably could've given you a bit more room, but he took the racing line.

I actually don't blame anyone for what happened, certainly not you mate. You were sideways when we the hit happened, I can hardly blame you for not getting out of the way. Getting lapped by the entire field was a bit downgrading though.

Sorry guys for the accident that I caused with LMR ..

I was paying too much attention to the cars in front of me and I kinda forgot that there was a car next to me..

At least it was not my intention to hit you LMR, I should have givin you more space for the corner..

Ah well atleast you apologized to your mistake! Thanks mate all is good, I didn't report a Stewards Inquiry

BloodYCaiN wrote:

BG Wumba wrote:

BloodYCaiN wrote:Possible...yes. Highly unlikely...yes. I think most would prefer a more likely possibility to win the second race not just watch the first 3 cruise to a podium finish. We're not necessarily saying every person that qualifies last in superpole is trying to beat the system. What we ARE saying is that the way it is currently setup, people beat the system unknowingly. I think if you read the previous posts closely you will understand where we are coming from. I disagree that after all is said and done and all points have been made that people would still choose an all out reverse grid for next season. Mathematically it doesnt add up Wumba.

I have read the posts, and like I said before, it does not matter if it's highly unlikely (This depends on how fast you are) the fact remains that it's possible and has already happened, which is what matters. I qualified last in Superpole on Sunday, not because I was sandbagging or 'unknowingly' trying to beat the system, but because I dirtied my lap, I then made up 4 places, which meant I did not start from the front row for the second race, I had to overtake people to win, and I noticed a lot of the front runners from the first race ending up in some of the top positions even though there was a huge unfortunate lag issue. The current system works fine, if your a good enough driver you will catch the people starting at the front for the second race as they will be battling each other, it all comes down to driver skill and that's how it should be.

Sorry but I totally disagree...if you think that having one of the faster drivers in a room dirtying his superpole then starting last, moving up a few positions then starting at the front for the second race having to overtake slower drivers and cruising to a win is "fair" then your definition and my definition of fair is totally opposite. We have many top 100 drivers (based on the true drivers test...spec hot laps) and a few of the fastest drivers in the world on this site that have never done what you seem to think should happen regularly. The devil is in the details and if you looked as close to finishing positions and points as I have you would think differently. It's not about what's possible...its about what makes sense. 700 yard par 5's are possible to birdie but not likely and the reason they are few and far between even in professional events. If you win superpole followed by winning the first race you should have ample amount of time to be able to claim your rightful position or atleast fight for it. Telling me that one or two people have done it over a ton of events is nowhere near the percentage of what it should be. It should be more common to have a huge battle between fasters drivers coming through the field and slower drivers that started first trying to hold off the faster drivers at the end. This just RARELY happens making the second race finale kind of lame in the front. Watch the TORA TV replays and tell me who is highlighted in the second races generally....3rd thru 6th because thats typically where the faster drivers end up without a shot at the win. This isn't coming from a crap driver. My highest positions gained in one series race is 13 and quite a few 8-10's. I'm rarely damaged and drive my ass off. I'm not discussing this because I suck at this game and need an edge. I'm discussing this because when you truly look at the numbers they just don't add up. Sure...the system does work as it is but it can definetly be improved.

If a faster driver moved up a few places after dirtying his lap on superpole then he wouldn't start at the front for the 2nd race because like you say, he's meant to be fast and should be taking his 'rightful' positions. I also don't think overtaking anybody is 'cruising' to a win. You seem to think that just because a driver is fast he can claim his 'rightful' position in a race, and your right, some of the faster drivers on here have hardly started from the back of the grid and won a race, do you know why? Because overtaking is an art of racing in itself, anyone can be fast around a certain track just hot-lapping but the ability to pass someone fairly and cleanly marks out the true racer from someone who is just fast. Fast drivers who can overtake usually end up with a shot of winning, it's not their god given right to be at the front just because they are fast, but also because they can overtake, such as which is required in race 2. As for the 'lame' second races, there are battles throughout the field, especially in A lobby from when I have been in there.

The qualifying system in my view is fair, if people are complaining about 'pressure' or anything of the like we should be given another lap (ie 5 not 4 as we have now).

Superpole is good but not when you have reverse grids. It's a shame we can't take the fastest laps from Race 1. I voted against complete reverse grids at the start of the season for a reason. THIS:

CQR Cobblepop kindly wrote:

8th & 9th = 311 points

1st & 16th = 330 points

In the next season surely it's got to be half of the lobby that get the reverse grid, or nothing at all. (ie top 7 in a 14 racers lobby, it gives say 8th to get a chance on pole).

My view right dere

I have to say I love how it is this season and wouldnt change a thing. The Reverse grids bring great coverage to TORA TV in all lobbies and the superpole adds pressure to the drivers (I actually feel the lobby A superpole should be added to TTV).

I would love a return of 1 pitstop per race or even just for race 2. Make the window only 2-3 laps long so drivers have to think about clean air and traffic and it really puts pressure on the drivers to think 'Do I follow this car into the pits or do I get 2 laps of clean air to leap frog him?'

I don't get why race 2 gets the same points as race1. Race 2 is luck the most part

TPR b0x wrote:I don't get why race 2 gets the same points as race1. Race 2 is luck the most part

You must be a very lucky guy then I see you often gaining a lot of places in Race 2.
Seriously, if a super-fast driver like you start from pole then Race 1 is mostly hot lapping, isn't it? Race 2 with reverse grid demands different driver qualities. Same points for both races means that the champion must have both: top raw speed and superb race craft. Makes sense IMO.

tsaFooT wrote:

TPR b0x wrote:I don't get why race 2 gets the same points as race1. Race 2 is luck the most part

You must be a very lucky guy then I see you often gaining a lot of places in Race 2.
Seriously, if a super-fast driver like you start from pole then Race 1 is mostly hot lapping, isn't it? Race 2 with reverse grid demands different driver qualities. Same points for both races means that the champion must have both: top raw speed and superb race craft. Makes sense IMO.

Totally agree tsafoot.