TCC Season 7 (Q1 2013) Testing - Phase 1 Closed

by **CQR Aero** Thu 10 Jan 2013 - 11:39

Welcome all. Now that "Phase 1" testing is completed (full car list tested built to regulations, run in stock setup at Hockenheim National) we can move onto "Phase 2". For Phase 2 I have opened up the testers to all of TORA Staff, BG, CQR, F4H, PLOW & VVV. I doubt that all of the registered members from those clubs will get involved in the testing, but the opportunity is there should they choose to.
The idea behind this is that, now we have tested all of the cars and found them to be within a 1sec window as "stock", built to regulation, we can introduce the "wealth of experience" that comes from these larger teams to balance test the cars when tuned.

To that end, as with Phase 1, we need to make sure that we are all working from the same page, so here are some guidelines for Phase 2 testing:

For testing, please run:

Limited damage
Usual TORA assists (i.e. no ABS etc)
Run 6 laps on Hockenheim National, and record your best time per car.
Please share all times, observations, found exploits etc here in this thread.

I fully expect that you'll do practice races/testing elsewhere etc, but please start with setting a time in each car as described above, so that we have a common pool of data that we can compare.

Please DO NOT share this information outside of your teams (those listed above). We will be aiming to announce the car list on 3rd Feb to the wider community. Please do not abuse the trust I have extended by spoiling that reveal through either chat, PM, email, posting on unsecure forum pages etc.

The Regs/Car List:

Richy59 wrote:Provisional - I have kept the races two weeks apart for the moment, but I think these are the tracks we should use. Test team can then test around these tracks.

Also, I think we should go back to the 3 race format, with the reverse grid last race. It was more fun, if a bit longer. Also, the main complaint about the tracklist last season was we used too small tracks, and with added bhp this time around I have used more full versions of circuits.

I'm also tempted to bring back standing starts for the TCC, however RWD will gain an advantage off the line.

Season 7 Calendar

Meeting 1 -- Rounds 1,2 & 3 - Hockenheim National - 26th February 2013
Meeting 2 -- Rounds 4, 5 & 6 - Nurburgring Short - 12th March 2013
Meeting 3 -- Rounds 7, 8 & 9 - Silverstone International - 26th March 2013
Meeting 4 -- Rounds 10,11 & 12 - Sedona Club Reverse - 9th April 2013
Meeting 5 -- Rounds 13, 14 & 15 - Infineon IRL Course - 23rd April 2013
Meeting 6 -- Rounds 16, 17 & 18 - Maple Valley Full Reverse - 7th May 2013
Meeting 7 -- Rounds 19, 20 & 21 - Motegi East - 21th May 2013
Meeting 8 -- Rounds 22, 23 & 24 - Suzuka Full - 4th June 2013

Any suggestions? With only 8 Meetings I was finding it hard to pick the best tracks, went for some flowing ones but also some stop start tracks as its TCC.

Provisonal Rules

FWD Car Build Regulations

Class = A
PI = 580
Power = 300-350bhp
Weight = 2,500-2,900lbs
Year = 2001 onwards
Type = Production
Drive Type = FWD
Engine Placement = Front
Aspiration = Turbocharged or Twin Turbocharged
Mandatory Parts = adjustable front and rear aero, full rollcage, race brakes, race tyres

RWD Car Build Regulations

Class = A
PI = 570
Power = 300-350bhp
Weight = 2,600-3,100lbs
Year = 2001 onwards
Type = Production
Drive Type = RWD
Engine Placement = Front
Aspiration = Turbocharged or Twin Turbocharged
Mandatory Parts = adjustable front and rear aero, full rollcage, race brakes, race tyres

Operating on the previous build regs, I have defined four classes.

FWD Turbo
FWD Twin Turbo
RWD Turbo
RWD Twin Turbo

Lobbies would need to run these four classes with entrants selecting their class depending on the car they are running. So for instance, someone in a Honda Civic Type-R 07 would run in FWDT. Someone with an Acura TSX would be FWDTT. A Vauxhall Insignia would be in RWDT, and a BMW 135 would run in RWDTT.

This does mean that there are some cars, that while it'd be great to have them in the series, don't meet the regs, such as the Audi S4, which can't be changed from a super-charger.

Provisional Car List

FWD - PI 580

2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Quadrifolio Verde
2010 Chevrolet Cobalt SS Turbocharged
2011 Citroen DS4
2009 Ford Focus RS
2013 Ford Focus ST
2002 Honda Integra Type-R
2012 Honda Civic Si Coupe
2007 Honda Civic Type-R
2011 Honda CR-Z EX
2013 Hyundai Veloster Turbo
2011 Kia c'eed
2010 Kia Forte Koup SX
2010 Mazda Mazdaspeed 3
2007 Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V
2010 Peugeot RCZ
2010 Renault Megane RS 250
2012 Scion tC
2010 SEAT Leon Cupra R
2006 Vauxhall Astra VXR
2006 Volkswagen Golf GTi
2010 Volkswagen Golf GTi
2009 Volkswagen Scirocco GT
2011 Volkswagen Scirocco R
2009 Volvo C30 R-Design

RWD - PI 570

2011 Audi RS3 Sportback
2009 BMW 135i Coupe
2011 BMW Series M Coupe
2003 Lexus IS300
2013 Scion FR-S
2008 Subaru Impreza WRX STI
2011 Subaru WRX STI
2010 Vauxhall Insignia VXR
2011 Volvo S60 R-Design

Timetable

22nd Jan - Phase 1 Sign-off / Phase 2 start
3rd Feb - Phase 2 Sign-off / Carlist Announced
17th Feb - Entry Registration Opens
26th Feb or 3rd March - Race 1.

FYI 18th - 22nd Feb = half term week.

Kind regards

Chris

by **CQR Aero** Thu 10 Jan 2013 - 11:46

by **CQR Rogue** Thu 10 Jan 2013 - 12:05

Nice 1 Chris thanks for taking this challenge up Smile

by **CQR Aero** Thu 10 Jan 2013 - 12:11

Testers so far:

CQR Aero
CQR MAGiC
F4H Bullet
VVV worm
PLOW tubbi
FranchittiFan

Awaiting response from:

Defconluke (honorary BG, suggested by Beanz)

by **CQR Aero** Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 8:23

Unfortunately Defconluke is unable to join us due to other commitments. We can get going "as is", and add another (I'm open to suggestionsas to who) if required. Preferably not someone from a club already represented by the testing team (just going for balance within the testing team at the moment).

Just looking at the proposed calendar as starting on 28th Feb got me thinking that we should probably have a schedule to test to so that we "go for it" rather than an "as and when" that never really has a feeling of structure.

Therefore I propose that the First Pass be completed by Tuesday 22nd Jan.

The testing group will then be opened up to the rest of our clubs (CQR/F4H/PLOW/VVV plus staff and some TORA regulars) for fine tuning.

The Second Pass to be completed by Sunday 3rd when the list will be published. This will allow 3 weeks to take in entries, sort out the spotter guide etc before we get under way.

Thoughts?

by **CQR Rogue** Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 8:47

Agree dude Smile

any 1 else?

by F4H Lotterer Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 9:57

ill most likely be doing my own testing with TPR guys if we do find anything overpowered ill be sure to report it.

by **Richy59** Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 10:12

I can easily delay the start of the TCC by 1-2 weeks, that's not an issue but I would like to see some testing results from this. I get back in two weeks and will be testing the cars as well. I may be able to do some limited testing on non DLC cars out here, but no promises.

by **CQR Aero** Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 11:19

Trash, if you want to join the Phase 1 test let me know and I'll add you to the doc in place of Luke so you can post your testing results.

by F4H Lotterer Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 11:30

ill not be testing each and every car myself so the results wouldnt be a reflection of just my driving it would be a mix of 2 or 3 , i can just post if i see any issues.

by **CQR Aero** Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 11:49

by TG Wormburner Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 12:35

Get rid of Sedona Club, the pit lane sucks and I don't know many people that like the track. It causes hold ups and accidents. Replace it with Catalunya National, an Alps track, anything except Iberian, Ladera, or Camino. If Le Mans Bugatti were still around........

Infenion IRL has the chicane. I don't know everyone's thoughts on that version. I also know there was a glitch on it that is hard to replicate. It cuts out all engine sounds and the person cannot hear their car. It happened to Magic at VM a while back and has to me a few times. No idea if it was ever patched or not. I like Infenion, just not IRL as much as the others but the glitch is a pain.

Nurburgring GP Short. I don't like this track, it cuts out one of the best driving sections of track in the game when you use this version. From the cut off for Short through the Shumaker S resides the best consecutive section of passing opportunities in the game.

Hockenheim National, Silverstone International, Motegi East, and Suzuka Full are awesome choices. (Suzuka West needs a damn pit lane)

I like Maple Valley a lot, others hate it. It gets a thumbs up from me. LOL

by **CQR Aero** Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 12:51

VVV worm wrote:Get rid of Sedona Club, the pit lane sucks and I don't know many people that like the track. It causes hold ups and accidents. Replace it with Catalunya National, an Alps track, anything except Iberian, Ladera, or Camino. If Le Mans Bugatti were still around........

I'm one of the nutters that likes it. The chicane does have a bit of a lottery element in regards to "the guy in front" getting it right or not, which is a shame because I like the challenge of maximising the "correct" line through that section (I still think sticky/slippery surfaces are a stupid method of penalising cutting. Take a leaf out of simbin's book, and introduce a timed power reduction for cutting).

VVV worm wrote:Infenion IRL has the chicane. I don't know everyone's thoughts on that version. I also know there was a glitch on it that is hard to replicate. It cuts out all engine sounds and the person cannot hear their car. It happened to Magic at VM a while back and has to me a few times. No idea if it was ever patched or not. I like Infenion, just not IRL as much as the others but the glitch is a pain.

I'm not a big fan of Infineon so no real opinion as to which version we use.

VVV worm wrote:Nurburgring GP Short. I don't like this track, it cuts out one of the best driving sections of track in the game when you use this version. From the cut off for Short through the Shumaker S resides the best consecutive section of passing opportunities in the game.

I agree for our faster/more powerful race series, but in touring cars I'd have to disagree. I love the short circuit, and the hairpin that makes it the short circuit is a great place for overtaking (have done it many times).

VVV worm wrote:Hockenheim National, Silverstone International, Motegi East, and Suzuka Full are awesome choices. (Suzuka West needs a damn pit lane)

I like Maple Valley a lot, others hate it. It gets a thumbs up from me. LOL

I'm so bored with Silverstone now it's not even funny. I know the whole track wish list vs business models argument, but T10 have yet to recognise that real longevity comes from adding tracks, not cars. I'm surprised they didn't take the opportunity to map more UK circuits when they were over at Dunsfold, there are so many great circuits all clustered so close together nearby (especially compared to the states), it would have cost next to nothing in travel/accommodation.

by TG Wormburner Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 13:01

If Sedona Club had a better pit lane and no sticky grass it'd be good but mixing drivetrains thru that chicane is a potential disaster for half of a lobby if someone hits that crap.

by **CQR Aero** Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 13:03

Yeh, it happened last year. Oh how I laughed! lol!

by Ax4x Chaddy Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 13:09

I think from many years doing that TCc that the tracklist couldnt be more spot on. Sedona was epic as I remember everyone being very close and Dan didnt run away like he had in all the other races.

Yes silverstone again but its our home aint it we need to race there and Id vote for national but doesnt matter does it. the IRL track is the one used by the WTCC and it looked good the Chevys didnt just drive to the front. I feel we have lost a great round at Mugello Club but we cant race at every track.

On the cars, I recently took part in the XPLR BTCC and RWD ran away it, they put way to much power in the FWD cars and they suffered from rotten understeer. Id love to see it close here and vote a rolling start in race 1 and 2 with a standing start for race 3.

by Guest Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 13:15

I agree Chaddy, I think any of the tracks suggested will work well - personally I prefer real world tracks to fake T10 tracks, but ultimately it's for the driver to adapt!

Iberian Full (forwards) actually makes for a decent race in touring cars - last years round there was particularly good. Cat Nat is one of my personal favourites, but almost everyone else seems to hate it - in fact last years race there was easily the lowest attended round (half the number of some rounds).

And I never knew the audio glitch was caused by the track Worm, I've had that a couple of times and never put 2+2 together that it's the IRL layout (seems to be if you run 12+ cars on that track)!

A standing start for race 3 would be a good idea (I take it race 3 is the reverse grid race?) - tend to find that rolling starts and reverse grids cause big pile-ups, usually because there are faster cars and drivers at the back and it all gets too bunched up. Whereas a standing start would keep everyone spaced out better, and hopefully have less pile-ups in the reverse grid race.

by **Richy59** Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 13:33

I am not totally convinced by giving the FWD cars up to 350bhp, but I have drove a few and they didn't feel too bad. The requests we had last season was to add RWD and to add the front aero, and I didn't want to put % handicaps on the BMW or any cars of that matter so upping the cars to 350 was the only way to go really. I could have said 325bho, but that would involve us looking at every single car for every race in a replay, and that would take too long.

Track list wise, another complaint was that we used too small track last season, and with more power I picked longer versions of tracks. I didn't want to use completely full length tracks for all of them, so that was what I came up with. It was very hard to pick 8 tracks, so there will be anotehr TCC season towards the end of the year probably using the same cars (if they are equal) and having a different selection of tracks.

Please focus on the cars for this test group however, I have no real experience of driving them and I am unsure how they will work. ckBrenneke worked on the car rules, and he creates such a successful season last season so I trust his rule making skills.

I have built all the cars, and the only one that stood out for me was the Kia cee'd as I could put full with tyres on it (265s), near the minimum weight and a pretty decent chunk of power (about 335bhp) but that was only a build. I am sure there are other cars that can be made in a similar way, but I build by cars using one standard build set and balancing power and tyre width to get to the PI.

Race 1 would be qualifying order, Race 2 will be in race order and Race 3 will be reverse. Slightly shorter races, and I would prefer if they were all standing starts however that brings the RWD possible advantage to the fold.

by Guest Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 13:41

Cheers Richy, that's great information to have - having the extra horsepower in FWD cars will add more to the driver skill and tuning aspect, e.g. controlling torque steer and not spinning up the wheels. I'll get building some cars tonight Smile

by Ax4x Chaddy Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 13:49

Im going to build all the cars to more grip than top end and not tune them and just do laps at every track.

by Guest Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 13:54

Same, full grip then as much power as required to get to the target PI and then drive with a stock tune.

by **CQR Aero** Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 14:04

CQR MAGiC wrote:Same, full grip then as much power as required to get to the target PI and then drive with a stock tune.

That's how I tend to build mine, adding parts that remove weight, and always taking the option that adds the most lateral g. If I have room in the PI limit for engine upgrades, I usually go for those that add power and take away weight first. Later, when tuning for power tracks I tend to go for engine block and cams first as they add power, torque and in the case of the cams, raise the rev range.

It's a lot easier to remove grip parts in favour of power when necessary than to try and find grip in a power built car.

by TG Wormburner Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 14:08

I'll cede to whatever Magic says on the FWD cars. I do think your walking a fine line on them with that much HP. Only one team is going to pick them (CQR) because adding that much power will do more harm than good. That '09 Focus will be dreadful no matter what you do to it. King of torque steer.

by Guest Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 14:31

They're not gonna be easy with that much power that's for sure - I've got a few A600 FWD cars (around 350bhp) and they're pretty tough to keep under control, but with some tuning and throttle control they should be OK. It does reflect where the BTCC is heading though, NGTC are thought to be around 300bhp already, with plans to increase the boost to produce 350bhp.

by TG Wormburner Fri 11 Jan 2013 - 14:33

Problem is there is no way on earth the real life Cobalt is as terrible as the thing in this game. So hard to even try to drive.

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