TCC Season 7 (Q1 2013) Testing - Phase 2 Open - *** Car List & Testing Instructions on Page 1 ***

by **Richy59** Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 6:59

Welcome all. Now that "Phase 1" testing is completed (full car list tested built to regulations, run in stock setup at Hockenheim National) we can move onto "Phase 2". For Phase 2 I have opened up the testers to all of TORA Staff, BG, CQR, F4H, PLOW & VVV. I doubt that all of the registered members from those clubs will get involved in the testing, but the opportunity is there should they choose to.
The idea behind this is that, now we have tested all of the cars and found them to be within a 1sec window as "stock", built to regulation, we can introduce the "wealth of experience" that comes from these larger teams to balance test the cars when tuned.

To that end, as with Phase 1, we need to make sure that we are all working from the same page, so here are some guidelines for Phase 2 testing:

For testing, please run:

Limited damage
Usual TORA TCC assists (i.e. no ABS, no TCS, no STM etc)
Run 6 laps on Hockenheim National, and record your best time per car.
Please share all times, observations, found exploits etc here in this thread.

I fully expect that you'll do practice races/testing elsewhere etc, but please start with setting a time in each car as described above, so that we have a common pool of data that we can compare.

Please DO NOT share this information outside of your teams (those listed above). We will be aiming to announce the car list on 3rd Feb to the wider community. Please do not abuse the trust I have extended by spoiling that reveal through either chat, PM, email, posting on unsecure forum pages etc.

The Regs/Car List:

Richy59 wrote:Provisional - I have kept the races two weeks apart for the moment, but I think these are the tracks we should use. Test team can then test around these tracks.

Also, I think we should go back to the 3 race format, with the reverse grid last race. It was more fun, if a bit longer. Also, the main complaint about the tracklist last season was we used too small tracks, and with added bhp this time around I have used more full versions of circuits.

I'm also tempted to bring back standing starts for the TCC, however RWD will gain an advantage off the line.

Season 7 Calendar

Meeting 1 -- Rounds 1,2 & 3 - Hockenheim National - 26th February 2013
Meeting 2 -- Rounds 4, 5 & 6 - Nurburgring Short - 12th March 2013
Meeting 3 -- Rounds 7, 8 & 9 - Silverstone International - 26th March 2013
Meeting 4 -- Rounds 10,11 & 12 - Sedona Club Reverse - 9th April 2013
Meeting 5 -- Rounds 13, 14 & 15 - Infineon IRL Course - 23rd April 2013
Meeting 6 -- Rounds 16, 17 & 18 - Maple Valley Full Reverse - 7th May 2013
Meeting 7 -- Rounds 19, 20 & 21 - Motegi East - 21th May 2013
Meeting 8 -- Rounds 22, 23 & 24 - Suzuka Full - 4th June 2013

Any suggestions? With only 8 Meetings I was finding it hard to pick the best tracks, went for some flowing ones but also some stop start tracks as its TCC.

Provisonal Rules

FWD Car Build Regulations

Class = A
PI = 580
Power = 300-350bhp
Weight = 2,500-2,900lbs
Year = 2001 onwards
Type = Production
Drive Type = FWD
Engine Placement = Front
Aspiration = Turbocharged or Twin Turbocharged
Mandatory Parts = adjustable front and rear aero, full rollcage, race brakes, race tyres

RWD Car Build Regulations

Class = A
PI = 570
Power = 300-350bhp
Weight = 2,600-3,100lbs
Year = 2001 onwards
Type = Production
Drive Type = RWD
Engine Placement = Front
Aspiration = Turbocharged or Twin Turbocharged
Mandatory Parts = adjustable front and rear aero, full rollcage, race brakes, race tyres

Operating on the previous build regs, I have defined four classes.

FWD Turbo
FWD Twin Turbo
RWD Turbo
RWD Twin Turbo

Lobbies would need to run these four classes with entrants selecting their class depending on the car they are running. So for instance, someone in a Honda Civic Type-R 07 would run in FWDT. Someone with an Acura TSX would be FWDTT. A Vauxhall Insignia would be in RWDT, and a BMW 135 would run in RWDTT.

This does mean that there are some cars, that while it'd be great to have them in the series, don't meet the regs, such as the Audi S4, which can't be changed from a super-charger.

Provisional Car List

FWD - PI 580

2011 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Quadrifolio Verde
2010 Chevrolet Cobalt SS Turbocharged
2011 Citroen DS4
2009 Ford Focus RS
2013 Ford Focus ST
2002 Honda Integra Type-R
2012 Honda Civic Si Coupe
2007 Honda Civic Type-R
2011 Honda CR-Z EX
2013 Hyundai Veloster Turbo
2011 Kia c'eed
2010 Kia Forte Koup SX
2010 Mazda Mazdaspeed 3
2007 Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V
2010 Peugeot RCZ
2010 Renault Megane RS 250
2012 Scion tC
2010 SEAT Leon Cupra R
2006 Vauxhall Astra VXR
2006 Volkswagen Golf GTi
2010 Volkswagen Golf GTi
2009 Volkswagen Scirocco GT
2011 Volkswagen Scirocco R
2009 Volvo C30 R-Design

RWD - PI 570

2011 Audi RS3 Sportback
2009 BMW 135i Coupe
2011 BMW Series M Coupe
2003 Lexus IS300
2013 Scion FR-S
2008 Subaru Impreza WRX STI
2011 Subaru WRX STI
2010 Vauxhall Insignia VXR
2011 Volvo S60 R-Design

Timetable

22nd Jan - Phase 1 Sign-off / Phase 2 start
3rd Feb - Phase 2 Sign-off / Carlist Announced
17th Feb - Entry Registration Opens
26th Feb or 3rd March - Race 1.

FYI 18th - 22nd Feb = half term week.

Kind regards

Chris

by **Richy59** Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 7:02

I have opened up this new thread for Phase 2, if you have any comments about Phase 1 then please share them however the current rules in this topic are the latest iteration and they should be followed. I want everyone to start running laps and get times, but also to get together a few times until the 3rd for some group testing to see how the cars race together on track.

Also, as a note, TCC assists in the past have stated no ABS, no STM and no TCS. I would like to keep this as I don't believe the cars need it at all but some people may want it. Is there an opinion on having TCS allowed or not?

by **CQR Aero** Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 7:03

by **CQR Rogue** Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 8:42

NO TCS!!

by **CQR Aero** Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 9:33

I'd say not. It's completely unnecessary for the FWD cars, and barely needed even if you are a "noob" RWD driver at this PI.

by **CQR Rogue** Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 9:37

Any 1 have any basic setups to apply to FWD and RWD?

by **CQR Aero** Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 9:58

Test times form/spreadsheet added to under OP. I've filled in a few from last night (all "stock" tuned) to test it. Seems to work OK.

by Ax4x Chaddy Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 10:17

Ill need to get some times done Embarassed

by CQR Jono Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 10:19

Amazing job so far gents - took great comfort from reading the phase 1 thread.

The work put in so far is a real credit to TORA, Aero and the rest of the staff/testing team.

I'm not sure how much time I'll be able to dedicate to this due to my racing and staff commitments here and elsewhere. I will definitely be attempting to pull my weight though.........if you ask some of my CQR brethren they will confirm my weight is quite considerable Very Happy

by CQR Honcho Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 10:20

TCS can find you too much time in these things.

If you were to allow an Assist, id Suggest ABS as the more "lower ranked" guys this is more commonly used.

ABS doesn't give you any advantage, infact, it hinders you!

Just voicing my opinion.

by CQR Honcho Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 10:24

The other thing is I wouldn't advise testing a car on a "stock tune " as its highly inaccurate due to the fact your not running it to its true cababilities, im not saying spend hours tuning, but it doesn't hurt to put a 5 min general "base tune". You'd be suprised at the difference!

by CQR Jono Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 10:26

CQR Rusty wrote:TCS can find you too much time in these things.

If you were to allow an Assist, id Suggest ABS as the more "lower ranked" guys this is more commonly used.

ABS doesn't give you any advantage, infact, it hinders you!

Just voicing my opinion.

Usual TORA TCC assists (i.e. no ABS, no TCS, no STM etc)

Taken from the OP Rusty Wink

by CQR Jono Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 10:28

CQR Rusty wrote:The other thing is I wouldn't advise testing a car on a "stock tune " as its highly inaccurate due to the fact your not running it to its true cababilities, im not saying spend hours tuning, but it doesn't hurt to put a 5 min general "base tune". You'd be suprised at the difference!

now we have tested all of the cars and found them to be within a 1sec window as "stock", built to regulation, we can introduce the "wealth of experience" that comes from these larger teams to balance test the cars when tuned.

Taken from the OP Rusty Wink

by CQR Honcho Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 10:30

I only mentioned because he was thinking about allowing TCS.
i was just saying if any assist was to allow surely common sence would be ABS as it gains no.advantage.

Allowing TCS would open a massive can of worms.

by Ax4x Chaddy Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 10:30

we all agreed to run them stock and we've ran with those assists rules since 2007/8.

by CQR Honcho Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 10:33

Im skim reading. [Censored] off Very Happy

by CQR Honcho Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 10:34

Richy59 wrote:I have opened up this new thread for Phase 2, if you have any comments about Phase 1 then please share them however the current rules in this topic are the latest iteration and they should be followed. I want everyone to start running laps and get times, but also to get together a few times until the 3rd for some group testing to see how the cars race together on track.

Also, as a note, TCC assists in the past have stated no ABS, no STM and no TCS. I would like to keep this as I don't believe the cars need it at all but some people may want it. Is there an opinion on having TCS allowed or not?

This is what i saw and was referring to Smile

by Guest Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 10:55

TCS should be banned (in all series lol).

Just to clarify, Phase 1 was a first pass with stock tunes to assess which cars should be included (some were discarded for being useless), and to asses the general balance between FWD and RWD cars (which needed some adjustment).

Phase 2 should now focus on tuning and refining the car builds to establish if any of the cars have an unfair advantage, and again to check the FWD v RWD balance is working correctly.

by **JAMIE ANDERS0N** Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 11:04

As much as I would love to help out with the testing of the guys my times will be too low to give you any great data plus now on the wheel so even slower for the time being. Great work with all the testing so far.

I like the idea of a main test team then later open up for more 'beta' testers.

by **Richy59** Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 11:07

Slower times would be great Jamie, that's why I'm also included Razz

We need to see how these cars fare across a wide range of skills before letting them loose on the general public.

by **CQR Aero** Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 11:15

Jamie, don't be put off by your speed compared to others. During the testing phase, your only real opponent is yourself. If you can lap consistantly, you can compare your own times in each car, and see how they balance with each other. It would be useful too, to get your opinion on the "feel" of the cars.

Everyone should expect a shed load of torque steer to be coming their way with this car list! The trick is not to just boot it out of the corners. I thought the CR-Z (first car tested last night) was pretty horrid last night, until I got my head around how to drive it, and suddenly the lap times tumbled.

by F4H Lotterer Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 11:17

If anyone is up for it ill host a lobby friday night and we can group test

by Guest Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 11:19

Slower times are still very useful Jamie - it's useful data of how your times compare across the cars, for example are you 0.5s quicker in RWD cars compared to FWD cars. And because you use a wheel, it gives data on how the cars feel for wheel users too

by **Ax4x Cowboy** Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 11:21

Having read through the Phase 1 thread I can see that you have all put in a ton of work already.

One question remains though - Why are we only testing on Hockenheim National?

Balance is best achieved when you have data points to cover as many variables as possible so rather than having 10 people run cars on 1 track you could have 2 people run cars on 5 different tracks.

Just thinking out loud Smile

by **Richy59** Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 11:23

I think if we focus on getting a good set of times for Hock National we can see how everyone compares, then we can also do times at other tracks and on track against each other to see how we compare.

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TCC Season 7 (Q1 2013) Testing - Phase 2 Open - * Car List & Testing Instructions on Page 1 *

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