Re: Miscellaneous Next-Gen Gaming thread

by The Posimosh Fri 24 May 2013 - 13:27

Because the commercials tell me I'm supposed to hate (and flame) all XBox/PS fanboys, while I plot their death... LOL

by Guest Fri 24 May 2013 - 13:34

PC's have used x86 architecture for 20+ years, and the Windows NT kernel (the glue that holds it all together) is refined and stable and used in everything from Windows 8, Windows Phone 8 to the Xbox One. It's a proven design, well documented and developers can easily write software for it.

Sony have abandoned their own Cell architecture for their own x86 design now, so the hardware is functionally very similar to the PC and Xbox One. But it won't use Microsoft's Windows NT kernel, it will be Sony's own x86 OS. To build a brand new x86 OS from the ground-up and compete with Microsoft is a HUGE undertaking. Apple, Google, IBM have been trying to take on Microsoft's x86 OS's for decades, and failed. So quite why people know think Sony, who's development track record includes BetaMax, MiniDisc and PS3 Cell OS, can pull this off is baffling.

Look at Sony's mobile phone OS's - they used to use Symbian (bought from Nokia). Once that was abandoned, they moved over to Android (made by Google). They simply don't have the in-house expertise and resources to compete with a Google or Microsoft. So while the games themselves will probably run great on PS4, the functionality of the console is dependent on the OS, which Sony will be responsible for developing.

The best analogy I can come up with is this:

Imagine an alternative scenario, where Sony decide to launch a new PC gaming platform called PlayStation PC. It uses standard PC hardware but instead of running Windows, it uses Sony's own operating system. What would you buy? The Windows based PC with decades of support and development, or Sony's new equivalent. Now substitute PlayStation PC for PS4. That's where we've ended up. The next-gen consoles are basically x86-based PC's which plug into your TV, so Microsoft have brought a gun to a knife fight. They have a two-pronged attack, PC and Xbox One, sharing fundamentally the same hardware against Sony's starting-from-scratch x86 OS for the PS4. No wonder Sony are stuffing the PS4 with as much teraflops and fast memory they can throw at it, they're gonna need it. It's PS3 all over again - a technically superior console, hampered by poor OS and online services.

by F4H Lotterer Fri 24 May 2013 - 13:40

^ i like explanations like this that i can understand Smile

by CQR Myles Fri 24 May 2013 - 13:40

To be honest, both haven’t even really been showed to any sort of representable degree, but to those who are not computer illiterate so far Microsoft have made the One sound like a high tec freeview box

by Guest Fri 24 May 2013 - 13:52

LMR Trash wrote:^ i like explanations like this that i can understand

How about... you win the lottery and want to win the LeMans 24 Hours:

A) Do you go to Audi, and buy an R18, complete and ready to roll.
B) Or go to Kia, and get them to copy all the same bits that are on the Audi and put them together for you. Minus the electronics and know how of how to make it all work properly.

Yes, I'm being slightly facetious, but there's some grain of truth there - one are experts in the field, the other trying to catch up with borrowed technology.

Myles Prower wrote:Microsoft have made the One sound like a high tec freeview box

Absolutely, they're presentation focused too much on the TV integration - which in reality is just one potential application of their 'hyper-V' multiple OS technology. What we need now is loads of Xbox One games at E3 Smile

by F4H Lotterer Fri 24 May 2013 - 13:59

yeah i know what you mean Mark but things like the actual xbox reveal i was like ummmm wtf i didnt understand any of it i just want to see games , now yourself and a few others have explained things in a non tech way i understand that this will be epic.

by Guest Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:03

Yeah, the reveal was pitched all wrong - it should have focused on the hardcore tech OR the consumer, instead it was somewhere in between and didn't speak to either group. Lets hope they do better at E3, just show us the games already!

by BG Wumba Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:05

The reports coming out of Microsoft after the reveal also give no clarity whatsoever.

by Standaman94 Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:11

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2013/05/23/microsoft-taps-turtle-beach-for-xbox-one-headsets
Hmmm

by Guest Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:12

Yeah Wumba lots of confusing mixed messages, I heard a particularly baffling explanation of always-on and always-online which left me scratching my head, until I realised he was talking about 'always-on', as in power mode rather than internet connected (like a Sky+ box is 'always-on'). They could really use some decent PR and marketing guys lol

A few more technical details have spilled out, the game-OS in the Xbox One has access to 5GB of memory, 6 processor cores and 90% of the GPU power. Interesting too with the virtualisation technology, you can literally suspend a game mid-game, pause it and come back to the same point later, like an instant save game.

by CQR Myles Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:12

LMR Trash wrote:yeah i know what you mean Mark but things like the actual xbox reveal i was like ummmm wtf i didnt understand any of it i just want to see games , now yourself and a few others have explained things in a non tech way i understand that this will be epic.

It's worrying because you bring your big stuff to the launch, your supposed to go in guns blazing say "Hey look at me" and yelling" It's this better than that Japanese s**t." Sony can get away with it because it reviled everything but the looks which gives them time to change what there doing. The success of the console wars will sadly depend on marketing not performance, Nintendo should focus on marketing for girls my girlfriend loves her Wii, (she also thinks mario kart is a proper racing game), I'm pro PS4 by the way simply because the Kinect (I fear allot of these exclusives are kinect games) and TV features are useless to me.

by Standaman94 Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:18

MS didn't go all Sony with the reveal because, simply put, E3 is less than a month away and they'd obviously rather save their big guns for the world's/year's biggest tech event. If they showed everything on Tuesday, they'd struggle to get anything good for E3, and it would make them look bad compared to Sony.

by F4H bandicoot Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:21

Myles Prower wrote: The success of the console wars will sadly depend on marketing not performance,

No, it will depend on what else he console can do. If it just plays games you limit your audience. The Xbox is now an entertainment hub. More people are watching netflix on their 360 than playing games, people are using it for sky, hulu etc. These things have been added to a system they weren't designed for and have proven immensely popular. So Microsoft have made it an entertainment hub and built these things in, it does TV, internet, Games. What else would you need in you lounge, bedroom etc?
Sony have gone, "it plays games" not shown the damn thing and only added in things like party chat (lol) and a DVR. Microsoft have gone the whole way and just made it into an all in one box.
Both Machines have the same spec (give or take), wo as a consumer, what do you look for then, additional features. The PS4 looks limited in that respect, whereas I could use the Xbox for more things, making it better value for money.

Exactly the same as what happened in the phone market.

by CQR Myles Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:24

sky, hulu etc. These things have been added to a system they weren't designed for and have proven immensely popular

Figures showed a 0% demand increase for these features

by Ax4x Kane Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:26

Wow Magic, you explain things well Smile

Despite being able to buy both I don't know whether its feasible or not. Is there any point of having a gaming PC, PS4 & XB1?

I'll probably end up getting the XB1...

by CQR Myles Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:33

Kilroy8 wrote:Wow Magic, you explain things well

Despite being able to buy both I don't know whether its feasible or not. Is there any point of having a gaming PC, PS4 & XB1?

I'll probably end up getting the XB1...

I'm looking for Sega Mega Drive

by Guest Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:35

Cheers Kilroy lol

It's too early to say yet whether having multiple consoles will be necessary - ultimately it will come down to exclusive titles. If Forza, Halo are your thing then XB1; if GT7 (eventually), Uncharted etc then PS4, but multi-platform games like COD, Battlefield 4 will all be great on XB1, PS4 and PC. For me it's an easy choice for XB1, I like Microsoft's exclusive games and I like the social interaction of Xbox Live over PC gaming, and the prospect of better multiplayer with cloud-based Xbox Live and the entertainment functions are something I'm looking forward too.

Bandicoot's right too. Entertainment is more popular on 360 (and PS3) than games are, the market for hardcore games-only consoles is get smaller, with increased competition from smartphones and tablets especially. Microsoft is betting on the future being an all-in-one entertainment device, with a strong gaming performance built-in. Think how Sky+ has revolutionised TV in the UK (and similar products worldwide have done the same). The long-term goal for Microsoft is for Xbox One to be that set-top box in your living room or bedroom that provides all entertainment and gaming needs. That's a HUGE market, far larger than that for a hardcore games-only console.

by F4H bandicoot Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:37

Myles Prower wrote:
sky, hulu etc. These things have been added to a system they weren't designed for and have proven immensely popular
Figures showed a 0% demand increase for these features

Is that why Sony went and got Netflix and Lovefilm etc. too??

You argument sounds like I didn't buy a smartphone because it has extra features other than calling people or I didn't buy that printer because it can fax too...

by Guest Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:42

A year ago (May 2012), Microsoft announced that:

"Xbox Live users are now watching more movies and TV and listening to music than gamers are using it to play online games."

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-03-27-xbox-live-sees-more-use-in-entertainment-category-than-online-gaming

They have the data, they know what we're doing on our consoles - they know the big market out there is entertainment, and it's only going to grow.

by CQR Myles Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:46

CQR MAGiC wrote:A year ago (May 2012), Microsoft announced that:

"Xbox Live users are now watching more movies and TV and listening to music than gamers are using it to play online games."

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-03-27-xbox-live-sees-more-use-in-entertainment-category-than-online-gaming

They have the data, they know what we're doing on our consoles - they know the big market out there is entertainment, and it's only going to grow.

So why was 75% of the launch audience not happy with the new media approach

by F4H bandicoot Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:48

Myles Prower wrote:
CQR MAGiC wrote:A year ago (May 2012), Microsoft announced that:

"Xbox Live users are now watching more movies and TV and listening to music than gamers are using it to play online games."

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-03-27-xbox-live-sees-more-use-in-entertainment-category-than-online-gaming

They have the data, they know what we're doing on our consoles - they know the big market out there is entertainment, and it's only going to grow.

So why was 75% of the launch audience not happy with the new media approach

Are you talking about the IGN poll?? Or some other thing? If so source please.

by The Posimosh Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:51

The Cell architecture was IBM, not Sony. Beta Max is still surperior to VHS, and I still take my mini disc player jogging every day (ok maybe not the mini-disc part). I think we largely agree that much of it will come down to execution. I'm also just arguing that both sound great in theory. But I already see flaws in the game plan of both consoles. I also see that the biggest potential differentiation between the two consoles are the social aspect and the performance aspect. As far as the social part goes, I find Sony to be ahead of its time with PSN Home (whether they will continue to focus on it remains to be seen), while currently MS has the edge on live because fore mentioned OS/architecture constraints. With that said, the primary reason I currently use my xboxes more than my PS3s because xbox live outshines PSN in this sphere for reasons we have already examined (to death). As for performance I don't see how anyone can give MS the edge at this point knowing what we know so far (though much of the specs are not finalized just yet, and even then, one thing MS is good at is expansion capability of a machine that an end user owns SEE APPLE.) Kinect is nothing more than a gimmick for the time being for 95% of users, and even then there are head tracking and motion sensing technology alternatives available elsewhere. As for other Xbox accessories, how much would you like to bet MS will implement countless cash grabbing proprietary accessories that don't work as well as their universal counterparts? Also, what can you not accomplish with a boxee box (or a PS4, or a PC with media center for that matter) in terms of consuming media that the XBox-ONE will allow you to do? If this is what MS is counting on to be the deal breaker, I fail to see where the "it" thing that everyone will have to have, that will override the performance edge it looks like sony will have.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I fail to see where either of these will out shine a home computer is comparably equipped. It seems like they will both be 60-75% purpose built gaming apparatus and 25-40% gimmicks and frills that can be found cheaper elsewhere.
Finally, while I do find Hyper-v (and all things visualization based) interesting, I fail to see why Windows NT based hardware is an advantage for the end-user over the open source alternatives available. Furthermore, they both seem to use hyper-threaded chipsets which offer the same sort of compartmentalized processing for multitasking and overall performance. A lot of the benefits of hyperthreading can only be realized when software is written to utilize this capability and how well this function is implemented. As far as connectivity, even MS agrees to some extent with me as they (as all major commercial companies) use UNIX for their backbone servers, and I don't perceive any change in this bias for large scale implementations especially, any time soon. In fact, if MS is really planning on using Azure (or any other in house end-to-end connectivity solution) I fear for them as the average household lacks an outlook administrator and IT department to sort things out when junior somehow gets logged in as an admin and causes a ruckus.
I suppose I'm just a bit unimpressed with both offerings. I don't really know why, perhaps its just down to getting older, or understanding more of the world of technology, but I'm left considerably less awestruck than I was last time around (when the PS3 blew my mind... and decimated my wallet). I fear, MS lacks the imagination that would make the XB-one something special. I also fear that Sony has become gun-shy because of the fainting couches they had to deliver to retailers and critics' offices when the price of the PS3 was announced, as well their getting burned by the cell processor (which I still think was just as safe of a bet as x86 at that moment). Most of all, I fear that both companies (MS being the worse of the two) take their consumers for granted because they have obliterated any viable competition, and then barricaded the avenues of entry in to the console space not through R&D spending, ingenuity, creativity, value, or innovation but through litigation and price fixing. I hope I'm wrong, but fear I'm not.
PS No hard feelings man, I hope you don't think any of this is personal or belittling in any way. If it came off that way, it was not my intention....

by Standaman94 Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:52

Myles Prower wrote:So why was 75% of the launch audience not happy with the new media approach

75% of IGN readers were disappointed with the Xbox One launch.

That could be because of anything MS showed. Remember, they only showed a few games but went on a whim about TV and sports; Everyone was hoping to see some awesome next-gen gaming action. They also announced the fee for preowned games and the fact you must be online once every 24hrs.

Without the technical specs, there's a lot to be disappointed about there.

by Guest Fri 24 May 2013 - 14:53

Because the people watching the reveal and posting on websites and forums are the hardcore 1% of the audience. The other 99% don't care, they just wanna turn on their shiny new Xbox One, watch some TV or a film and play some amazing looking games. The hardcore gamers and tech geeks are the minority audience, the 25 million who pay Microsoft every year (and month) to play Call of Duty and watch films and TV on their Xbox are the mass market, not us.

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