MSA TORA Daytona 24H - General Discussion

Thanks to all of the Staff and other teams for a great event. We at WRA are proud of our efforts in both cars and we look forward to racing everyone again at Sebring in March.

I'm not overly impressed by some of what transpired over the past day. The problems from this event are nothing new, therefore should've been solved a long time ago. Things have seemed to stay the same and it's a damn shame.

I mean for starters, Lobby 1 had to restart because the room was set up incorrectly, putting us about 45 minutes behind from the get go. This should never have happened. Triple check things, clearly this didn't happen.

You've missed people in stints. This shouldn't happen, ever. Hosts- If someone's not hopping in, send them a message. Don't just say, "oh well i've sent them 2 invites, too bad". Be proactive. Drivers- same thing. If you're not invited, message someone in the room. The stints are on the site, so you can find someone racing with you and message them.

Some people have never multiclass raced before and it was very evident in lobby. GT and LMP cars need to work together. GT cars have the right of way, yes, but when an LMP is closing at 50+ MPH, don't stay in the middle of the track and force them to avoid you. Both classes are racing and your race is no more important than theirs, so yeah, LMP cars are going to be aggressive from time to time. Many times I had to take evasive action because a GT car was not paying attention of LMPs trying to get by. If you start on a line, HOLD IT while the LMP is going past.

Results- You have "live timing", but that's a misnomer because it was hardly ever "live". Staff- assign someone to run docs for each stint. Apparently the timing doc is cumbersome and hard to use- Make it user-friendly and allow hosts and other willing volunteers to enter times. This way you don't get 5 stints behind on results and have to wait a day before finalizing everything.

For Sebring, I am willing to help run docs. I don't mind doing calculations while I'm not racing. I want these events to be better.

Lagout calculator- Publish this in the rules so that people can calculate the distances and send them in. You can fact check it but instead of having to do 30 calculations after the race ends when everyone's exhausted and frustrated, let people calculate their own distances and send them in. On your doc, make it so you can just enter the data, i.e. distance achieved, qual time, time remaining, and boom, stint with lagout calculated instead of what we have now, about 1/4 of the stints missing over 3 hours after the event has ended.

Results should be done within a 1/2 hour of the race ending, no excuses.

Oh, and let's not change rules half-way through the race? Not the first time BS like this has happened in TEC but for it to continually happen over the years is unacceptable. It's absolute hog-wash that starting from stint 7 or so that people were starting their stints based off qualifying rather than the running order. Supposedly this was done because the results were no longer up to date... This goes back to have enough volunteers to keep everything moving along at a brisk pace. There's enough of us here that could help but when not asked, there's nothing we can do.

Everyone that worked behind the scenes on this event deserves a pat on the back, don't get me wrong. I've run an event like this before (2014 Pro Endurance 24hrs of Nurburgring), and I know how much stress and work goes into making things possible. However, the execution of this race could have gone better and it needs to from here on out. I know that you had issues with staffing the week before the race began, I understand that. Someone should've reached out to the community and added people in to compensate.

The biggest thing for these events is to be prepared for sudden changes and to have enough help to make the work easier- make the actual processing of the event (results, docs, setup, etc) simpler to have things run more smoothly. That way there are less variables on race day. Have more people on the back end to take care of things, regardless if they're staff/community team/stewards/whatever.

Thanks again for the event, congrats to those that finished

As for F4H- We're on to Sebring.

Thank you to everyone involved. I am glad to have been a part of it!

Diablo, I can reassure you that many of the points you have brought up are being discussed in Staff in conversations that started during the event.

Notes of interest:

This was the first full TEC event since the introduction of the XB1 console. The first major enduro since 2014. There are new limitations and issues since FM4 and the 360 that we've had to try and overcome.

Yes, we had the same old issues that we'd seen in prior TEC events, and it seems that we didn't make many changes to the old format. Reason is that TEC has always been seen as a strong point of TORA, based on how many teams show up for the enduros that we don't see at some other events and series, so we stuck to what we've done before. With the new console's issues, we didn't want to compound things by making too many changes and taking too many risks all at once.

And, with the long break since the last TEC's, we've also had a bit of personnel turnover. That can be expected over 18 months. People change their priorities to fit changes in their real world lives, others head off into new positions elsewhere, and those people will need a replacement. For that reason, for much of the TORA Staff behind the scenes, this is the first TEC, if not first enduro of any kind, that they have officiated. Now that they have a little experience at this, they have seen "how it's always been done", they are bringing in some valuable new ideas on how to make things better and smoother for the next one.

That being said, we have all survived, and hopefully enjoyed, the first TEC event on Forza Motorsport 6.

When is Sebring? If I'm available, I'd love to volunteer somehow in the organizational part, though I imagine it would be hard to do so without the XB1.

The racing itself was great fun even with all the delays, And I must of ran fairly well as I got accused of only stopping 3 times in the Audi R8 lol.

Although there needs to be a solid rule on double stinting. Either allow it for all stints or none. Totally unfair to make people wait a good hour for double stinters, But then totally screw teams out of stints because a back up that's online can't join stints 7 or 12 due to the no double stinting rule.

Annoyed I had to wait a good 90 minutes for stint 5 to start waiting for someone, Yet stint 12 couldn't wait 45 while I covered for another team member who overslept due to a late night caused my earlier stint delays.

Also the starting procedure in B lobby was a joke. 1 sec per car roll of delay and grid ordered by PI basically meant the Audi R8 teams lost around 10 seconds a stint to the front GT cars in B lobby in every stint, So we lost 120 seconds over the B lobby pole Corvette by the end of the race just from the starting procedure.

AAR ABEnstein wrote:When is Sebring? If I'm available, I'd love to volunteer somehow in the organizational part, though I imagine it would be hard to do so without the XB1.

As long as you are willing and able to run the docs, we'd love the help in our ongoing endeavour to actually achieve "Live" timing. I'd suggest that you have an access point on forum to receive all stint results from the lobby hosts then be able to post the results into the timing doc.

Me and my team enjoyed the racing but the delays were too much, only thing that let this down were the delays and the lack of communication for Lobby B stint 12, there was no mention of who the host was, so its all well and good saying people need to message hosts if no invites are sent out, but if no one has told any teams then how can we act? I'm in 2 minds about keeping the team on for Sebring just for that last reason. My team and many others have worked hard to battle through the stints only to be let down on the last one, its a massive let down.

I agree with Maynard on his last point, a 1 sec roll off delay, really?!

One thing to consider as a participant:

Keep track of who is in your lobby and stints. Instead of waiting an invite, look for those in your stint and their activity via XBL. If they're not double stinting, but are in a race lobby, send them PMs or even hit the "join" button. Do whatever you can to get yourself into the lobby, rather than just wait it out.

So your saying its our fault? Our driver didn't realise the stint was starting at the time it did because stint 11 was only half way through, he messaged the host after finding out eventually who it was, on the forums it said 'to be determined', sometimes we need to rely on the invites being sent out, especially in an endurance event.

Lonewolf8646 wrote:So your saying its our fault? Our driver didn't realise the stint was starting at the time it did because stint 11 was only half way through, he messaged the host after finding out eventually who it was, on the forums it said 'to be determined', sometimes we need to rely on the invites being sent out, especially in an endurance event.

I'm not saying it was entirely your fault. But, just like while on the track, it really helps to know who it is you are racing with, where you start, etc, before the lobby is even open. Be as fully prepared as possible. If everyone was better prepared, there would be a lot less delays and missed stints.

well for the next one can something be put in place that all participants add lobby hosts to the friends list so that its smoother running and avoid the missed invites?

With "unlimited" number of XBL friends on the One, go one step farther and add everyone in your stints, at least that you aren't mortal enemies with. There is no reason not to.

I agree with many of the concerns here. Granted this is your first and a lot of effort went in but, and I know you're aware, there needs to be a bigger effort on organising this and holding people accountable of particular jobs. We ran the N12 in December on FM6 with two lobbies, streamed and so forth and everything ran smoothly and on time. Each stint was based off of a stint delay and everyone knew the procedures. I am sorry but having done this already, I don't see many acceptable excuses but only a lesson learned. The lack of communication has to be addressed.

Having been involved in nearly every endurance event or at least, the majority of them; we can only hold you to the standard set before. This is not a bad thing. Demanding or expecting excellence (to a degree) is not unwarranted and I can say this because it's been done before. We all understand you put a lot of time and effort into this but it is in vain if you are not organised and you do not communicate. Please respect that all the participants put in weeks and weeks of time and effort to ensure you had the best cars, paints and talent in the community so I must ask you to pardon my frustration at a weekend of disappointment. I am still trying to understand why guys are starting by qualifying order in the later stints? We had that, the finishing results of the stints before and then the standing order. It was a pot luck to see what would be said.

Lagouts have been discussed for years now and there is a system that protects that. This needs careful thought and consideration. Myself and Trash were the first ones to implement this rule and it worked perfectly. If you search the archives, the rule is there with the formula for everyone to see. LMR also had a formula that was extremely fair. Nobody wants to win an event at others misfortune and the retention in the event goes out the window without something like this. The formula and method needs to be shared with everyone to critique also. What we had before, nobody could take advantage of it.

Lastly, thank you for hosting and running this. I know it is tough and can be stressful. Having read my post, I am sure the negativity you feel from it is the last thing you need but just like you, I want this to be better too. I am nothing and not helping you at all if I cannot express my thoughts and displeasure.

If you need help, just ask.

i think there should be a ban on double stinting as it creates delays and those delays mount up and even with the no double stint for 6-7 it still doesnt work.
but i would help out making sure the timing was upto date but also there should be one which gives the positions after each stint rather than people having to work it out and taken a how day.also rather than post a clip to prove how many miles done,maybe they should message the host and that way it should work.(i might be wrong but its worth a try) but overall it was a good event to watch for sure.

Chris, you are correct on so many points.

Not using anything as an excuse, but I will say that LMR Deftone MX, was fully in charge throughout the process of setting this up until things came up a week or so ago. That left us in a ship without a captain, as at the time there was literally nobody expecting the need to take control so late in the going.

Had Deftone been able to stay on, I am sure that most of the issues that were encountered wouldn't have even happened. And I for one surely hope that he is 100% for the next one, as we really need his leadership for these races.

Well done to everyone, Sorry to the people that were watching the Live Stream, i kept it going as long as i possibly could, i started falling asleep on my Chair and thankfully i had Omega and Joito to do comms cause i was just yeah about die haha, But congratz to everyone and the Winners, have a good 1 and see ya next time

Flyin Mikey J wrote:Chris, you are correct on so many points.

Not using anything as an excuse, but I will say that LMR Deftone MX, was fully in charge throughout the process of setting this up until things came up a week or so ago. That left us in a ship without a captain, as at the time there was literally nobody expecting the need to take control so late in the going.

Had Deftone been able to stay on, I am sure that most of the issues that were encountered wouldn't have even happened. And I for one surely hope that he is 100% for the next one, as we really need his leadership for these races.

Thank you for the response.

I don't think Collin being MIA is an excuse. Sorry. A good leader like Collin lays down the tracks, he doesn't need to drive the train. Someone should be allowed have RL come up and not have the pressure of feeling like everything goes to hell. We had Trash go MIA in his GT3 event at TURN but was quickly supported by his staff and they had many hurdles to encounter. It all ran smoothly. I am not trying to compare but with so few events nowadays (this is a good thing) I find it too easy to draw comparisons with similar situations.

It's a lesson learned. I appreciate your stance and two cents.

I don't believe that there should be a ban on double-stinting. In my experience, delays are usually not caused by waiting for those racers, but rather a simple lack of leadership to stick to a schedule. I've seen a single TORA event start over an hour late. There wasn't even stints involved, but a single short race.

It doesn't take 15 minutes to record data and accept an invite. At 1 hour 45, the following stint should already be fully setup, and the invites sent. Not in on time? Tough.

I double-stint regularly, and 15 minutes is more than enough to record data, hard reset my xbox, use the restroom, eat a snack, cuddle my girlfriend, and accept my invite.

One theme to expect next go around: "Be Prepared"

It goes back a couple of weeks that I had to pull out for medical reasons which I'm not interested in sharing.

Throughout this race I was approached by many people saying "if you were here..." But that's exactly why I can't. No one person can be the sole proprietor for these races. It's a learning experience for this group, as the last time these races were run on TORA, they were done by people who have now gone elsewhere to run them.

They're learning. And to be frank, you're all going to have to be patient. I don't know that I'll be involved for some time, if ever, and who's to say it'd be any different if I was?

They've taken away a lot from this race and will apply everything they've learned to Sebring.

I for one, would like to congratulate the organizers on a great effort. They put every ounce into this and that's all I for one can expect.

Congrats all to all those involved in racing and organising seems to been a good event, need to get my racing gloves out soon

LMR Deftone MX wrote:It goes back a couple of weeks that I had to pull out for medical reasons which I'm not interested in sharing.

Throughout this race I was approached by many people saying "if you were here..." But that's exactly why I can't. No one person can be the sole proprietor for these races. It's a learning experience for this group, as the last time these races were run on TORA, they were done by people who have now gone elsewhere to run them.

They're learning. And to be frank, you're all going to have to be patient. I don't know that I'll be involved for some time, if ever, and who's to say it'd be any different if I was?

They've taken away a lot from this race and will apply everything they've learned to Sebring.

I for one, would like to congratulate the organizers on a great effort. They put every ounce into this and that's all I for one can expect.

Come hell or high water, they did actually finish the race.

So I'll commend them for making it. I wouldn't have been able to pull that off.

From 2pm saturday my phone did not stop going off whilst we was arranging things in the background and is still going off now.

This was my first tec is been this heavily involved in and to be honest it has been a real eye opener on what really goes on that goes unnoticed.

I for one have learnt alot from this and will take that into sebring